Guest Pillar Posted August 29, 2000 Share Posted August 29, 2000 I'm just wondering if there are any Objectivists or those who are familiar with the philosophy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I'm familiar with Objectivist philosophy, which is why I am not an Objectivist. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiftymicrolitres Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Is the Pope Polish? Has Atlas shrugged? I am an objectivist, but not of the Randian sort. Why do you ask? 5m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I too would say "I'm an Objectivist, but not of the Randian sort". In other words, I agree with her underlying premises and axioms. I ask because I'd like to know from a *rational* perspective, keeping in mind objectivity with good and evil, why those of you with these values are interested in warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar: I'm just wondering if there are any Objectivists or those who are familiar with the philosophy here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I object to John Galt, but that's as far as I go... ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I had never heard of Objectivism, so I looked it up, and cam across a curious paragraph in the summary of Objectivism. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Moral selfishness does not mean a license to do whatever one pleases, guided by whims. It means the exacting discipline of defining and pursuing one’s rational self-interest. A code of rational self-interest rejects every form of human sacrifice, whether of oneself to others or of others to oneself. The ethics of rational self-interest upholds the exercise of one’s mind in the service of one’s life, and all of the specific value-choices and character attributes which such exercise entails. It upholds the virtues of rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride. It does not advocate “survival at any price.”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I may be too dense to get it, but I see nothing within Objectivism's axioms that indeed requires justice. It says that violence is not a rational method of persuasion, but it is CERTAINLY an effective method of pursuit of self-interest. Someone explain to me why "justice" is important in Objectivism? (Oh and to keep this on-topic, Panther g's are really cool) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I'm really more of a Dadaist than anything else. Purple urinal monkey spaceship. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 What is this "I'm an objectivist but not the Randian sort." That's like saying, "I'm a secular Humanist but not the Kantian sort." Ayn Rand thinks war is detrimental and its only use should be to punish those that start wars. This game however, is not war, and provides one with all of those things which war offers without the disagreeable necesity of blowing up hard-earned resources or killing perfectly good men. By this I mean that tactics and strategy have very useful purposes in the business and social world, and CM gives me an excellent opportunity to tune mine. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 08-29-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Warrior Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 If my wife or daughter where in a burning buidling all the Objectivist in the world couldn't stop me from going in after them. I think I prefer the more old fashion: "No greater love is there than this, that one should lay down his life for a friend" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". ------------------ March To The Sound Of The Guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Midnight, I don't mean to sound rude but, come on, you don't seriously think that kind of stuff, right? I mean, you read that statement in a Harlequin romance novel and you're just iterating it so that we can all bask in that wacky, romantic notion of love, right? You're going to run into that burning building because there's a CHANCE that you can save your genes. If that same family of yours fell off a cliff, you wouldn't jump after them would you? ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I think it's all a bunch of bull****. War is infinate, it's always here, always has been, always will be. War is the nature of LIFE, not just men. War is older than objectivism it self, and any man not willing to sacarafice for the needs of a another, a country, an idea, a flag, is weak. The reason most of us who live freely, able to even discuss OBJECTIVISM, is because someone Died! Period! Objectivist are "fence riders", weak people who can't make a choice on the beliefs of a country or god. Whats good for the many, out ways the needs of the few. ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Wow Def, that's quite a bit of propaganda you've got there. Riddle me this: How many dead soldiers are enjoying the fruits of their labors? What is the difference between a murderer being sentenced to death and one of your German or Soviet "patriots" being drafted into an army and sent into death? War is pain, war is all cruelty and anytime we decide on acceptable reasons to kill our fellow man, we'd better make damn certain they're good ones and we'd also better remember that life is about living, not dying. What's the point of sacrificing your life so that others may live? Who decides that and when does it end? Your jingoism rings true on a message board and in politics but what does the common soldier care? He doesn't want your glory, he's just trying to survive. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Elijah, I don't think any soldier wants to go out and die for his country. If you read Def Bungis's post that way I feel your wrong. I agree with Def that there are things worth dying for. Thats not saying I look forward to dying. But I would gladly die to save my family, or for my beliefs and my ideals. Frankly if your belief system and family aren't worth protecting...are they really worth having? Lorak ------------------ Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams [This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 08-29-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Lorak, My beliefs have a lot to do with individuality, honor and the sanctity of human life. Self-sacrifice, like socialism, is riddled with inconsistencies, with weak, vaccilating fools leeching off of the honorable and hard-working. You've mixed your terms, saying first, that you would gladly die for your beliefs and your family. I doubt this. I think you would be very unhappy to die, as have most people who die. This is not to say that you won't do it nor that you should not be lauded for your sacrifice, but who gains from it and who suffers? You follow this with the statement that you would be worried if I didn't protect my family, ideals, etc. That is what I'm doing right now. Its quite a leap of logic, however, to go from saying "Protect one's family" to saying "Die for your flag on some foreign shore for the good of any number of politicians." ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: Wow Def, that's quite a bit of propaganda you've got there. Riddle me this: How many dead soldiers are enjoying the fruits of their labors? What is the difference between a murderer being sentenced to death and one of your German or Soviet "patriots" being drafted into an army and sent into death? What's the point of sacrificing your life so that others may live? Who decides that and when does it end? Your jingoism rings true on a message board and in politics but what does the common soldier care? He doesn't want your glory, he's just trying to survive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Elijah; This is my last post on this subject. You know how this philosophy stuff can drag out. I see what your saying. But, I...ME.... am enjoying the fruits of dead soldiers. Apparently you are too. It's not about sacraficing your life so someone can live. It's about sacraficing your life for a life style. And for me, that's freedom (in a sense). Even sacarficing for the objectivist. THAT, is true freedom. Imagine trying to take away the freedom of every american. Where would the objectivist stand? Right, he would most likely fight and even die to keep his values and beliefs. Objectivism is a dream world, it doesn't exist except in concept. There is nothing wrong with self preservation. But, somewhere you have to choose a side. ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Elijah Meeks, I know, it's a bad way of wording it for sure. I am however assuming that most people here are going to misunderstand everything about Objectivism, Selfishness and Objectivity in just about any sense. Thus, rather than go into lengthy explanation that Objectivism is a "closed philosophy" and that those who disagree, even in the most MINOR way, are not official "Objectivists", I just said I'm an "Objectivist" but not exactly as Rand put it. Glad you stuck up for reason and responded to some of these people who perhaps misunderstand the full implication of what it means to be selfish. However, this *IS* a forum about war and Combat Mission and we shouldn't try to spark any sort of philosophical debate, nor should we be using this forum to explain our beliefs to others. To those of you who posted things like: "Someone explain to me why "justice" is important in Objectivism?" "If my wife or daughter where in a burning buidling all the Objectivist in the world couldn't stop me from going in after them. " "But I would gladly die to save my family, or for my beliefs and my ideals" I refer you to a website: www.capitalism.org or www.capitalismmagazine.com Also, try www.capitalismmagazine.com/forum if you would like to ask these questions in a more appropriate place. I will only say this: It is perhaps one of the most selfish acts a man can ever do to risk one's own life in the name of the thing a man loves most. - Pillar [This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 08-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Actualy Elijah I think thats what makes us diffrent. I have no fear of death. It doesn't bother me in the least bit.. (pain thats something else...) but dying to me isn't a big deal. When I say I would gladly die for my family and beliefs I mean it. If I knew that my death would actualy count for something, make a diffrence however small, I would gladly go. Beats the hell out of being killed by a drunk diver or some other useless bit of faith. So yes. I can say honesty that If my death gave life to my loved ones or family, I would go with a smile on my face. Lorak ------------------ Proud commander of the CCT's Chinchilla Commando Teams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Lorak, This may be true but I doubt it and I have a simple proof for you: If your ancestors felt this way, you wouldn't be here. Self-preservation is a basic tenant of evolution and a very smart one. ------------------ You wouldn't know the dust of Thermopylae if it came up to you, handed you a business card reading "Dust of Thermopylae, 480 B.C.E.", then kicked you in the shins. -Hakko Ichiu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I object to StuGs. StuGs suck. (Hetzers merely blow). ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 I am not mocking here, I really want to know.... How is "justice" necessary in Objectivism. I read the Objectivism website till I had a headache, but I havent been able to figure out how that ties in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Well, Foobar and others are going to have to find the answer someplace else. This is WAY off topic. This one is closed up. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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