20mm shots acting as only one?

[TeAcH]

I hope this wasnt discussed to death, but...

Why isn't each individual 20mm cannon round calculated or accounted for? Maybe it is but I'd like to know how. It seems to me that when a 20mm cannon (or flak) fires at something multiple times in a burst, only one explosion or one deflected round is shown for example.

Is each round calculated for penetration, hit, etc? Or just one and the rest are for show?

TeAcH

[Smoker]

Good Question. Perhaps the 20mm cannon is small enough that it is treated like a .50 caliber machinegun.

------------------

Smoker out.

[Ricky]

According to a good friend of mine who is in the Military, a 20mm cannon round passing within 2 feet of your head would cause your eardrumbs to burst.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Hmm...I did a bit of playing with the AAA guns in the last few days and I was wondering the same thing but was leary of actually posting it.

I ran a few quick tests and came up with the following rates of fire using "CM Ammo Units".

20mm = 16

4x20mm = 26

37mm = 16

I show the actual sustained rof to be aprox.

20mm = 200

4x20mm = 750

37mm = 150

With blast CM numbers as

1x20mm = 6

4x20mm = 26

1x37mm = 26

It all looks like it all works out to a good aprox. of the actual effects of the weapons without having to calculate the fall of each individual round.

Considering that the quad 20 would spew out 750 rnds/turn I can see where this might be a CPU hog if you had a pair of them blasting away at long range.

Then I got to wondering about how they are moving all that ammo around when the push that gun to a new location, even slowly. I came up with the following ammo loads based on a backward calculatoin of rof and cm ammo units and my data regarding ammo wts and actual sustained rof.

20mm 229lbs for 4 men to carry

4x20mm 575lbs for 6 men to carry

37mm 307lbs for 5 men to carry

This does not include the weapon itself of course.

Also, I would like to keep this civil if that is at all possible...

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Fionn]

When calculating ammo carriage etc one must remember that the ammo was usually NOT carried by the men but carried in panniers etc on teh gun they pushed.

One can PUSH far more than one can carry ( i.e. I can push a BMW uphill if I have to.. I cannot, however, carry a BMW uphill.)

Remember to consider ALL of the context when discussing such issues.

[apex]

Fionn, show me that BMW trick on muddy ground

apex

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Good point Fionn and one I had not considered. The speed (if it can be called that! ) of these weapons in CM is pitiful anyway so I don't see it as much of an issue but I had not considered that.

Do these things get 'bogged' too? I have not pushed enough of them around to see this happen yet (if indeed it does).

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest Germanboy]

The modern 20mm twin AA gun has about 450-500 rounds in both panniers together, chained up. You can not really fire at a constant rate, AFAIK. The gun will jam. These large chains are very awkward to handle. Most of the ammo will be on the truck or dumped close-by where someone is putting it into the chains. Limbering these guns up and unlimbering them is a pain in the arse.

------------------

Andreas

[IntelWeenie]

Back to the main point (sort of)

How are multiple-gun mounts (Wirblewind)handled for accuracy/damage? Are they calculated as one or is there a separate calc for each gun?

IIRC, the German 20mm guns in CM used 20 round magazines. As for pushing them around, the ease of pushing would really depend on whether or not they were limbered on their 2 wheeled carriage (like in "Saving Private Ryan"). If not limbered, I can't imagine them being moveable at all within the scope of CM.

------------------

"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Guest Scott Clinton]

IntelWeenie:

All the fire for all the AAA guns in CM (AFAIK) has its fire amalgomated into a single "CM-shot".

For example: When I ran a quick test of the 4x20mm AAA gun it had a rof of 26/turn. In reality this would be aprox. 750 rounds in the one minute turn. Thus each shot 'rolled for' in CM is representing about 29 rounds (total) of 20mm fire from all four barrels.

This is all just me talkin' from what I have observed mind you. I think it would take Steve or Charles to say for sure.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

When calculating ammo carriage etc one must remember that the ammo was usually NOT carried by the men but carried in panniers etc on teh gun they pushed.

One can PUSH far more than one can carry ( i.e. I can push a BMW uphill if I have to.. I cannot, however, carry a BMW uphill.)

Remember to consider ALL of the context when discussing such issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this one occasion, I can add a bit to the overall context on "pushing" AA guns.

My comments will focus on the German "Quad" 20-mm AA gun, because one of these is on hand at the USAF Museum which I have had a chance to personally inspect and operate, even during its refurbishment several years ago.

I don't know right now what CM allows for the quad-20 in movement, but I can state this emphatically from personal review: even if it sits on a hard road and has a 10-man group pushing or pulling on it, that gun is NOT going to go anywhere, all the more so if the full gunshield is attached. The tripod spread and "topweight" will defeat any attempt to manhandle this gun in its deployed or "set-up" mode. It can move only when attached to its special two-wheel trailer, and while possibly capable of firing when mounted to this trailer, it will not have the full 360-degree fire arc as when "set up."

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Pass it on to BTS.

If it needs adjusting, they will fix it.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest Germanboy]

I agree with Spook. As said before, my personal experience is the twin 20mm. IIRC (my military service was 12 years ago), the gun can not fire when on the wheel carriage. Once off the wheel carriage, you can not move it.

------------------

Andreas

[IntelWeenie]

This begs some questions about the 88mm FlaK in the game. Is it considered to be firing from off of the wheel mounts (which it was at least capable of doing)? FWIW, I think taking it off those mounts might take a little more than the 5 minute unlimber time in the game.

Also, if it is considered to still be on wheels, is the additional stability of being unmounted taken into account in scenarios where it is not moved/emplaced in "foxholes"?

------------------

"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Lee]

Hmm, good question about the accuracy of the 88 when on/not on wheels.

I thought the 88 was completely unmoveable during a scenario. This

would likely mean it is considered in CM to be not on wheel mounts,

but operating from a more fixed position. Charles, comments?

[Spook]

Well, I did a little test on the "mobility" of the flak guns and found out that the German quad-20 AA gun CAN be moved in CM.

I had a single-20 lined up with a quad-20 and got the following results for wet ground:

20mm: 29.4 meters per minute, or app. 30 mpm

quad-20: 10.2 mpm or app. 10 mpm

Actually, it does give more of a pause for thought as to whether or not the lighter AA gun, not attached to its trailer, could cover this ground (30 mpm) without the crew being VERY fatigued.

Using the old ASL notes as guidance, neither of these guns should be capable of moving excepted when limbered onto their two-wheel trailer, but when limbered, the 20 is equivalent to the 50mm Pak 38 in manhandling "ease" while the quad-20 is equivalent to the Pak 40.

I suppose a relatively simple fix to this would be that if a movement command was given to an AA gun like these, a delay of several minutes (similar to limbering) should first be applied before allowing movement of the gun, without having to create a special "gun-trailer" 3D graphic. And for added simplicity, a gun that stops moving could be assumed to automatically "unlimber." (Through the history of towed guns, limbering was comparatively more time-consuming.)

Again, all of this is "niggle level" and isn't a gamekiller of itself. But considering the earlier contentious debate applied to movement speeds for MG's and certain AT weapons, I think that AA gun movement limitations is fair game for discussion. BTS will likely catch this from me on e-mail.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

Considering that the quad 20 would spew out 750 rnds/turn...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that it wouldn't be doing any such thing. To repeat what Andreas posted, you wouldn't fire it for a solid minute. Firstly, you'd run out of ammo real quick and have to stop to swap magazines, clips, what-have-you. Secondly, a solid uninterrupted minute of firing would probably melt the barrel, seize up the action, etc.

750 rpm is the *cyclic* ROF. The practical ROF is much less than that, probably less than a third.

Michael

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All the fire for all the AAA guns in CM (AFAIK) has its fire amalgomated into a single "CM-shot".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. Well, I had a Churchill tank fast moving laterally receiving fire from a 20mm flak gun in a scenario. (see this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/007549.html )

I watched as 4 shells would come out of the gun, 1 might hit the tank giving one ricochet sound along with the ricochet message above the tank, and the other 3 would miss the tank, and give one sound of hitting the ground behind. Atleast that's what I _thought_ I saw and heard.

Try setting up a laterally fast moving tank against a Flak gun and see if some shots from the 4-shell barrage don't miss (both visually and sound-wise) while others hit. I'm *pretty* sure it wasn't multiple rounds from different guns, but unfortunately, I'm not completely certain.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

No Michael.

The 750 is the practical sustained ROF for the quad 20mm.

And people would be firing the weapon for a full turn, and it would not eat up all your ammo in a single turn.

A single "Area Fire" order would require a full turn of fire unless the LOS became blocked or something dire threated the weapon. I know becuase "Area Fire" is how I tested them and they don't stop unless they REALLY have to.

Again, the practical sustained ROF for the quad 20mm is listed at 700-800 rpm and that seems reasonable considering it is FOUR automatic cannons firing with five men feeding ammo into it (and a sixth actually firing it).

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

Again, the practical sustained ROF for the quad 20mm is listed at 700-800 rpm and that seems reasonable considering it is FOUR automatic cannons firing with five men feeding ammo into it (and a sixth actually firing it).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah - I overlooked the fact that it is the quad. So I guess that ~180rds/min are indeed possible. The limiting factor would be ammo supply. If you have handled 20mm ammo you will probably agree with me that getting it fed into a gun at that rate is next to impossible during a longer fire-fight. I guess you would be much more sparingly with ammo in a ground-fight than in defending against an air-attack (which is usually over in a few minutes if it takes that long).

Regarding movement, I don't think it should be possible to move these guns once they are unlimbered. But as was said before, that is no biggy and something that IMO can wait to be dealt with until more weightier matters are addressed.

------------------

Andreas