PEB14 Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 I'm definitively a poor player… I managed to lose no less than [censored] men to eliminate that damn observation post! I completely screwed up the assault phase… I scored a Total Victory though, because the AI surrenders as soon as all German are KIA/WIA. @George MC If you want to make scoring tough, you need to add ghost German troops in ordrer to preclude any intempestive surrender. The map is absolutely gorgeous. I wish all CMBN maps could be that good (and beautiful!)… A particular mention to the regular, "garden-border" type hedges turned into crossable, "pseudo-low-bocage" hedgerows: they're both realistic and visually very beautiful (more than standard low bocage…). I keep the idea for future reuse! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 59 minutes ago, PEB14 said: I'm definitively a poor player And you're modest and humble Pierre . Seriously though, what you say makes a lot of sense. Go on, tell us what number was censored? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 2 minutes ago, Vacillator said: And you're modest and humble Pierre . Seriously though, what you say makes a lot of sense. Go on, tell us what number was censored? I can't: it's a two digit number… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 1 minute ago, PEB14 said: I can't: it's a two digit number… Okay, I can understand your reluctance... Maybe luck was a fickle bed partner that day, if I'm not mixing metaphors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 3 hours ago, PEB14 said: I'm definitively a poor player… I managed to lose no less than [censored] men to eliminate that damn observation post! I completely screwed up the assault phase… I scored a Total Victory though, because the AI surrenders as soon as all German are KIA/WIA. @George MC If you want to make scoring tough, you need to add ghost German troops in ordrer to preclude any intempestive surrender. The map is absolutely gorgeous. I wish all CMBN maps could be that good (and beautiful!)… A particular mention to the regular, "garden-border" type hedges turned into crossable, "pseudo-low-bocage" hedgerows: they're both realistic and visually very beautiful (more than standard low bocage…). I keep the idea for future reuse! Or unlucky! Well appreciate the playthrough and feedback. I've been working on this a wee bit, still tad rough, but its getting there. These small scenarios are waaay harder to get right than larger ones as loss of one element can have significant impact. Anyways added the ghost reinforcements so the German AI will fight till the end. As there is the possibility of the initial outpost occupants being nailed, I added something esle to keep clearing the farm a bit more 'engaging'. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 Thanks to all who have taken this for a spin. Version 4 attached see link below. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 8 hours ago, George MC said: Anyways added the ghost reinforcements so the German AI will fight till the end. As there is the possibility of the initial outpost occupants being nailed, I added something esle to keep clearing the farm a bit more 'engaging'. Thank you Sir. Now I may have my entire force wiped out! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 8 hours ago, George MC said: Or unlucky! I'm afraid this was not the main reason of the disaster... Looks like I have a problem with your scenarios, as they consistently make me suffer (with occasional exceptions)... Back to Sniper Hunt, I had the following approach. (Warning, spoilers ahead!) Based on the briefing, which speaks of an "observation post" (and not of "snipers"), I estimated the enemy force at 5-6 men (the observation post proper plus a small covering force, with perhaps one MG 42). Additionnally, the main goal being to wipe out the enemy post, and the briefing actually mentioning the escape routes, I took action to cover them. So I split my forces in 3 groups, all 1-squad strong: - 1 base of fire, approaching down the road under cover of the hedgerows - 1 assault force (scheduled to operate through the main gate), reinforced by the mortar team and the platoon HQ, and 1 encircling force intended to cover the escape routes. Both advanced along the sunken road and the left-most wheatfield. I suffered the first loss during the very first minute inside the set-up area, along the road's left hedge. Everything proceeded then smoothly according to the plan and I reached the designated positions within 20 minutes, advancing cautiously. In particular, the Fire Base squad on the road used a lot of Slow and Hide while approaching the farm along the road's right hedgerow. When everybody was ready, I unhid my Fire Base squad and smoked the main gate with the mortar. The assault team reached the main gate without trouble, the Bren gun team finding a good covering position along the hedge, cutting down a lone German who fled at first gunshots. Unfortunately from now on things went wrong. It appeared that not all men from the Fire Base had firelanes to the farm. On the contrary the German DID. Don't ask me why. Within a couple of minutes all men from the Fire Base were pinned or dead (yes, it was my Fire Base who was pinned!). In particular, the Bren gun was never in position to fire a single shot - but it didn't preclude the enemy to kill him on the spot. I should have called off the assault, as the enemy was not pinned. But I proceeded nonetheless. I shall have had used a smoke grenade to cover the rear of the main house but I didn't. So my assault teams were slaughtered in short. Finally it's the Bren gun team of the assault squad who wiped out the enemy. Conclusion: - Fire base team wiped out. - Assault squad down to barely half-strength - Other elements intact. Obviously the encircling squad didn't fire a shot... *** I don't think my plan was that bad, considering my preliminary estimations of the enemy strength. Obviously, splitting one's force is never very good but if I didn't I had to offer the enemy an escape route... Thinking back, I think there were two issues: 1) The position of my Fire Base squad was bad. And to be honest, I'm still looking for a good firebase position where my Bren gun can unleash its firepower... 2) I should have smoked the rear of the main house to place my two assault teams in good position safely. Additionally, I must confess I feel frustrated by the somewhat illogical situation my Fire Base squad fell into: the enemy was able to locate and fire at each and every soldier behind a hedgerow, whereas half of these men weren't able to fire at a BUILDING in which the Germans stood because they couldn't see it?!... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 3 hours ago, PEB14 said: I'm afraid this was not the main reason of the disaster... Looks like I have a problem with your scenarios, as they consistently make me suffer (with occasional exceptions)... Back to Sniper Hunt, I had the following approach. (Warning, spoilers ahead!) Based on the briefing, which speaks of an "observation post" (and not of "snipers"), I estimated the enemy force at 5-6 men (the observation post proper plus a small covering force, with perhaps one MG 42). Additionnally, the main goal being to wipe out the enemy post, and the briefing actually mentioning the escape routes, I took action to cover them. So I split my forces in 3 groups, all 1-squad strong: - 1 base of fire, approaching down the road under cover of the hedgerows - 1 assault force (scheduled to operate through the main gate), reinforced by the mortar team and the platoon HQ, and 1 encircling force intended to cover the escape routes. Both advanced along the sunken road and the left-most wheatfield. I suffered the first loss during the very first minute inside the set-up area, along the road's left hedge. Everything proceeded then smoothly according to the plan and I reached the designated positions within 20 minutes, advancing cautiously. In particular, the Fire Base squad on the road used a lot of Slow and Hide while approaching the farm along the road's right hedgerow. When everybody was ready, I unhid my Fire Base squad and smoked the main gate with the mortar. The assault team reached the main gate without trouble, the Bren gun team finding a good covering position along the hedge, cutting down a lone German who fled at first gunshots. Unfortunately from now on things went wrong. It appeared that not all men from the Fire Base had firelanes to the farm. On the contrary the German DID. Don't ask me why. Within a couple of minutes all men from the Fire Base were pinned or dead (yes, it was my Fire Base who was pinned!). In particular, the Bren gun was never in position to fire a single shot - but it didn't preclude the enemy to kill him on the spot. I should have called off the assault, as the enemy was not pinned. But I proceeded nonetheless. I shall have had used a smoke grenade to cover the rear of the main house but I didn't. So my assault teams were slaughtered in short. Finally it's the Bren gun team of the assault squad who wiped out the enemy. Conclusion: - Fire base team wiped out. - Assault squad down to barely half-strength - Other elements intact. Obviously the encircling squad didn't fire a shot... *** I don't think my plan was that bad, considering my preliminary estimations of the enemy strength. Obviously, splitting one's force is never very good but if I didn't I had to offer the enemy an escape route... Thinking back, I think there were two issues: 1) The position of my Fire Base squad was bad. And to be honest, I'm still looking for a good firebase position where my Bren gun can unleash its firepower... 2) I should have smoked the rear of the main house to place my two assault teams in good position safely. Additionally, I must confess I feel frustrated by the somewhat illogical situation my Fire Base squad fell into: the enemy was able to locate and fire at each and every soldier behind a hedgerow, whereas half of these men weren't able to fire at a BUILDING in which the Germans stood because they couldn't see it?!... That sounds like a reasonable plan fir sure. Another playtester over on the cm unofficial discord had a clear run with no casualties. He write: “Used 3x 3 man assault teams. 2 ran up the bocage corridor on the left and came in from the left side. had suppressing fire from the right side and threw out some smoke from the Mortar . third team came in head on through the smoke and from the front. 1st team entered and cleared 1st floor 2nd team cleared 2nd floor. 3rd team took a security position on the right side of the building. To be brutally honest. I dont think the sniper team fired more than 2 unsuccessful rounds.” He reckoned he nailed the outpost occupants in the opening five minutes. Yeah I find LOS/LOF in CMBN can be both surprising and baffling. Especially with buildings and foliage. Not mush I can do re this as it’s linked to game engine foibles. I’ll have a rethink on the briefing re info etc. some added flavour re bothersome sniper etc/arty fire. I did consider adding a FOO team for the Germans with some mortars but given the unit size in this could end the scenario really quickly!! So I avoided that. Thanks again for the playtest sand feedback. Tìoraidh! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 45 minutes ago, George MC said: He write: “Used 3x 3 man assault teams. 2 ran up the bocage corridor on the left and came in from the left side. had suppressing fire from the right side and threw out some smoke from the Mortar . third team came in head on through the smoke and from the front. 1st team entered and cleared 1st floor 2nd team cleared 2nd floor. 3rd team took a security position on the right side of the building. To be brutally honest. I dont think the sniper team fired more than 2 unsuccessful rounds.” No idea what does "had suppressing fire from the right side " mean... Right side from the German POV I guess? Anyway, the good idea above is, the less troops you use, the less potential casualties you get. And indeed only the Bren gun team are useful... But this strategy implies that you know the actual strength (weakness) of the enemy... 45 minutes ago, George MC said: Yeah I find LOS/LOF in CMBN can be both surprising and baffling. Especially with buildings and foliage. Not mush I can do re this as it’s linked to game engine foibles. Absolutely. And I won't take this as a pretext for my failure, as exemplified by others' achievements! The key is actually to find a good Base of fire position - and I failed miserably to do so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 7 minutes ago, PEB14 said: And indeed only the Bren gun team are useful... The 4 men assault team with 13 hand grenades are the guys who have the last say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 1 minute ago, PEB14 said: No idea what does "had suppressing fire from the right side " mean... Right side from the German POV I guess? Anyway, the good idea above is, the less troops you use, the less potential casualties you get. And indeed only the Bren gun team are useful... But this strategy implies that you know the actual strength (weakness) of the enemy... Absolutely. And I won't take this as a pretext for my failure, as exemplified by others' achievements! The key is actually to find a good Base of fire position - and I failed miserably to do so. I shared it as think the main challenge designing small scenarios (platoon strength) such as this is ‘luck’ can play a significant role in the outcome even when a player adopts what in theory should be effective strategies. So trying to get the scenario to ‘work’ takes a bit more drilling and a lot more input from testers, such as your good self. So trying to work out an average middle ground where how the scenarios performs for players adopting an effective approach and minimise the potential excessive impact of luck is the challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 (edited) 57 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: The 4 men assault team with 13 hand grenades are the guys who have the last say. Theoretically you are right. But if you have to chose only 3x3 men as per above you need the Bren for its suppressive firepower. Edited September 9 by PEB14 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 21 minutes ago, PEB14 said: But if you have to chose only 3x3 men as per above you need the Bren for its suppressive firepower. Fire and maneuver one is no use without the other. It works in Red Thunder LMG suppresses and the assault team for the coup de grace. In Red Thunder the assault team has two submachine gunners and two riflemen grenadiers. British Commonwealth one Sten and three riflemen grenadiers. I play mostly Red Thunder but I think British Commonwealth could use the same tactic. Splitting right and take note of the soft factors. Happy Gaming by the way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 1 hour ago, chuckdyke said: Fire and maneuver one is no use without the other. It works in Red Thunder LMG suppresses and the assault team for the coup de grace. In Red Thunder the assault team has two submachine gunners and two riflemen grenadiers. British Commonwealth one Sten and three riflemen grenadiers. I play mostly Red Thunder but I think British Commonwealth could use the same tactic. Splitting right and take note of the soft factors. Happy Gaming by the way. I absolutely agree with you. You can mix two Bren teams for the suppressing effect and one Sten+grenades assault team for the coup de grâce. I don't know what the guy above did use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted September 9 Author Share Posted September 9 28 minutes ago, PEB14 said: I absolutely agree with you. You can mix two Bren teams for the suppressing effect and one Sten+grenades assault team for the coup de grâce. I don't know what the guy above did use. His overwatch hit lucky in the initial firefight I suspect and KIA/WIA the farm defenders before he effected a break in. I’ve played about with the AI plan a bit to try to mitigate this since that play test. There are some covered approaches which can facilitate a quick approach, but finding a good position for base of fire elements would appear to be key. In my very first version of this I the brits gad a section only vs one sniper team. But CM just not really the tool for that scale I think as it’s getting into FPS type territory. So hence the Brits are now a platoon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted September 9 Share Posted September 9 8 hours ago, George MC said: So hence the Brits are now a platoon. The platoon has the 50mm mortar so they can use obscuration to get the Bren teams in position. That is also hard to put in an AI Plan I think. The answer is clearly Multi Player just to replace AI Plans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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