Forward Air Controllers?

[Fletchman]

Being an admitted nut for airpower (Being a long time player of Warbirds), I was wondering if there were any chance of adding forward controllers for the air element in the game (much like the spotters for artillery, but controlling the air element.)

While not thick as flees, there were quite a few of these attached to forward allied forces - especially towards the end of the campaign.

Another note on airpower. Of course its very hard to represent the allied dominance of the air in a tactical game, as interdiction etc can't be directly represented on the tactical battlefield very well. Answers like giving the germans less bullets and shells across the board is artificial.

It seems to me that the aircraft rarely accomplish as much as their point cost would indicate. (ok a nit pick note)

Naturally an airplane buzzing a close-in fight from above makes fratricide very likely, and if the terrain is dense, as likely to attack your own side as much as the enemy. Of course that is what the controllers were used. Overall I think their addition to the game (with the commesurate increase of effectiveness) would be a reasonable way to respresent the allied dominance of the air at that time at the tactical level of the game.

[Tiger]

I'm not sure this would make playing the Germans very much fun. I had once suggested giving the allies automatic fighter-bombers during fair weather at no cost but then realized it would make the game very one-sided. I've had fighter-bombers really put a hurt on the enemy and have had them not do a whole lot sometimes. Purchasing fighter-bombers is a gamble; however I'd say in my experiences whenever I do pick fighter-bombers they usually do something. Often I find during a replay that I didn't hear the airplanes zooming around on another side of the map. Perhaps they should increase the fighter-bomber sound a little? Don't forget that if your enemy has purchased flak weapons this will deter your fighter-bombers. I've seen allied tanks firing their .50 cal at attacking fighter-bombers as well.

-johnski

[Pham911]

I think the the CAS controllers(or advisors, or whatever they were called... Drawing a blank) were attached above the company level, so it would be out of CM's scope. Maybe someone knows otherwise though. It's a mystery.

Also, I know for a fact that PSW 234/3's will fire at CAS. It surpised the hell out of me when the did it, but I was just praying they'd shoot the *!@#! down after a single bomb crippled a tank platoon of mine(seperate from the 234/3's).

They didn't, but the CAS stoped coming around after a few turns(and after taking out 2 of 4 of the PSW's with MG fire...)

I hate CAS. I think that if BTS won't include bikes, they should dump the CAS which *always* works against me, even when it's my own.

[Guest Germanboy]

I think allied air power is overrated in the game as it is. This opinion is based on reading a lot about the battles in Normandy and beyond, and following the discussions on this board. I would be quite against any moves to make it more efficient.

Examples: XXX Corps advance towards Arnhem, where air power was apparently not very effective, when available, or not available (despite FACs) because of radio breakdown. In 'The struggle for Europe', Chester Wilmot states that FACs got so efficient that they could operate Typhoons only 200 yards upfront the Allied point. In CM I have seen CAS take out HTs and armor in a melee, with my guys being about 30 yards away, and the battle a complete chaos with no defined frontline.

Note: this is just my opinion, and I am happy to be convinced otherwise, but from my current understanding, the effectiveness of CAS in an actual battle was constantly overstated.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-05-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

Many Allied commanders were also (rightfully) quite nervous of calling in CAS. The real Allied air superiority was, IMO, the ability to disrupt German lines of transport and communications, and to a lesser extent, to dole out pre-assault bombardments. Even this was somewhat of a dodgy prospect - IIRC, the bombardment preceding Operation Cobra wiped out a good part of several American companies, killed a 4-star, and delayed the operation for several hours. My recollection of this is fairly sketchy, but shorts were devestating.

However, neither interdiction nor pre-assault bombardments are within CM's scope, so it's probably best not to worry about it

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911:

I think the the CAS controllers ... were attached above the company level, so it would be out of CM's scope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First part is correct, but not the conclusion.

FACs were within LOS of the enemy, otherwise there wouldn't be any use for them. So even if they're not attached to your company up front, they do have a reason for being there.

Same goes for field artillery FOs...

Cheers

Olle

[Splinty]

I have to admit that FAC's would be really nice to have in the scenario I'm playing now. It's called "Jabos" and features allied air strikes throughout the whole battle (at least as much as I've played so far)and although I loved the damage they caused to the enemy in the first part of the game,now that I'm actually fighting on the objective the wingnuts are starting to commit fratricide,FAC's would limit this and allow me to call in strikes on targets of opportunity as they appear.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[tailz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Many Allied commanders were also (rightfully) quite nervous of calling in CAS. The real Allied air superiority was, IMO, the ability to disrupt German lines of transport and communications, and to a lesser extent, to dole out pre-assault bombardments. Even this was somewhat of a dodgy prospect - IIRC, the bombardment preceding Operation Cobra wiped out a good part of several American companies, killed a 4-star, and delayed the operation for several hours. My recollection of this is fairly sketchy, but shorts were devestating.

However, neither interdiction nor pre-assault bombardments are within CM's scope, so it's probably best not to worry about it

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearing in mind that the 8th AF strenuously resisted using its heavies until they were forced to by Supreme HQ to support Cobra. (Because the AirForce knew the risks involved... same thing with the RAF when they were forced to commit their heavies to support the Canadians during 'Crucible' IRC)

Also, FACS were used primarily by the Commonwealth Forces, as the US preferred to send their fighter bombers on 'free range' patrols to interdict behind enemy lines. Standard RAF procedure was to form 'cab ranks' of four Typhoons when required for Air Support and then be used as flying artillery. They should be available to the Commonwealth player (with whatever price increases that are necessary for their availability.)

To simulate Cobra, just dial up some battleship cover on a small map.

Tailz