Battle pack - how do you tackle "PAK fronts" on a huge open map?

[SDG]

I consider myself a combat mission veteran, played hundreds and hundreds of ours, own all of the titles and completed most of the campaigns.

I thought I give a try to the battle pack (x days of of summer or something) and jeez am i getting my teeth kicked in.

My biggest problem is that AT guns in huge open maps cannot be scouted (even if i have an infantry screen, they remain hidden until my vehicles show up). The only way to locate them is to actually get shot by them.

I am in the first mission and an AT gun just decimated tons of my vehicles from 1,5 kms away because it was shooting from a direction I was not expecting and caught my force from the sides.

I absolutely hate savescumming, and my favourite part of the game is when I can go in blind. I usually just roll with the punches, but this time I had to restart because i lost 2 tanks and 2 apcs (full of with infantry) and an spg on the very first mission of the campaign.

So, any tips on how do you proceed in such an environment (not enough force to form a continous front line and you can be ambushed by a plethora of AT guns from practically anywhere becuse the map is large and flat)?

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[Brille]

I haven´t played the campaign yet, only glanced into the first mission.

 

To detect an ATG you mostly have no other option than to lure them out. Give them something to shoot and then answer with guns or better with mortars or artillery.

If they are this far away I would think of avoiding them all together if that is possible. Look for obstacles that will deny them a line of sight. Forests, buildings, dents and bumps in the terrain, use everything. Quickly jump from one cover to the next. The aiming process at this range will take some seconds, so short sprints could work.

When there is no cover and you have artillery with you, use a large scale smoke mission do deny the view on your troops maybe at least just from one direction, while you have the breath to fight in the other direction or get in closer.

Note also that german tanks come with smoke rounds themselves. So maybe it is sometimes wiser to only blind the ATG rather than trying to destroy it.

Note 2: If you have german tanks, that can take a punch (Tiger, King Tiger, Panther) remember that they have a so called "Nahverteidigungswaffe" (at least the later variants). Simply put a built in mortar that fires HE and smoke bombs.

They can drive up front and at each waypoint you can order them to "pop smoke", while they keep on moving, probably taking punches.

On each waypoint they will pop 2 to 3 smoke rounds. So you can practically lay down a smoke trail other (weaker) vehicles can follow through.

I haven´t counted the ammount of smoke bombs they have but they have plenty.

Probably no strategy by the book but it is quite useful to at least get further down the line.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Brille

[domfluff]

Worth mentioning that the scenario designer (GeorgeMC) spends a large amount of time finding the best sites for his AT guns - it's one of the characteristics of his scenarios.

In terms of dealing with this:

This is where your terrain analysis/intelligence preparation of the battlefield needs to come in.

You're completely correct that you can't scout every possible piece of terrain, but good IPB is supposed to mean that you don't have to.

Basic course of action analysis (so the step up from terrain analysis) looks something like this sequence:

• What do I need to do?
• What will enable me to do it?
• What can the enemy do to stop me?
• What can I do to prevent that enemy action?

A good scenario designer (and GeorgeMC makes some of the very best), will place their assets in strong and logical positions. If the enemy AT guns are their key assets in your initial assessment, then you need to identify their potential positions before you begin.

The above sequence would be followed one section of the battlefield at a time.

 

For example, you might need to cross a bridge with an infantry company.

"What do I need to do?"

I need to get the lead company over the bridge in good order.

"What will enable me to do it?"

I judge that as a baseline, I should be able to do this with the organic assets of the company.

1. Form a base of fire on the near bank with two of the platoons and the organic weapons.
2. Send the first platoon across
3. First platoon forms a base of fire, and one of the others crosses
4. Final platoon crosses.

"What can the enemy do to stop me?"

Overlooking this crossing area is a small bunch of houses nearby, and a treeline further out to the flank, onto which I have no direct observation. The treeline would be the worst-possible position to find AT guns, and the houses could contain infantry, perhaps a forward OP.

"What can I do to prevent that enemy action?"

The basic plan remains intact, but I need to assign additional enablers to avoid this crossing. I determine that whilst there's no direct observation of the dangerous treeline, I can get LOS from the buildings.

The plan then becomes:

1. Form a base of fire on the near bank with two of the platoons and the organic weapons, as well as a single assault gun, set up to support an assault into the buildings.
2. Send the first platoon across, with attached forward observer, to clear the buildings.
3. First platoon clears the buildings, and the Forward Observer starts to call down harassing fire on the suspicious treeline
4. When the fires start coming in, the other two platoons cross, and establish a base of fire on the opposing bank.

It's entirely possible that this means that your artillery is firing on nothing. That's fine - what you've gained is the knowledge that nothing is there to fire at you, and this kind of shaping operation is really the point of artillery to begin with.

[Halmbarte]

My notes on playing the SOV in RT & CW:

 

Using Sov tactics to beat the Germans/NATO in RT/CW:

Time spent on recon is never wasted.

Time and resources spent killing enemy recon is never wasted. 

Have a plan and execute it. 

The artillery fire plan dictates the maneuver plan. The maneuver plan dictates the fire plan. These must be mutually supportive. 

A company of Sov tanks spots better than any single German/NATO tank. 

Take away the better spotting offered by the German/NATO habit of fighting unbuttoned. Get them heads down to decrease their situational awareness. 

When you attack, attack! Don't poke him with one finger at a time. Make a fist and crush the enemy with overwhelming force. 

Use a platoon to crush a squad > use a company to crush a platoon >> use a battalion to crush a squad. Fair fights are for suckers.

Keep pressing attacks until they aren't feasible anymore, but don't reinforce failure. The Germans/Americans never have enough troops/tanks. 

Just because you have mass doesn't mean the only way forwards is a frontal assault. There are other ways to win that don't involve sticking your dick into the meat grinder until it jams. Recon routes that bypass the enemy, the Germans/NATO never have enough troops/tanks to cover every avenue of approach. Infantry infiltration is a thing.

If you're playing the Sov: Your man portable ATGMs (>AT3s) are scary. Use infiltration tactics to get the ATGMs forward into range to support attacks. Make sure to protect the carriers since they are stuffed with reloads and make big boom if hit. 

Take you time, don't be in a rush to die. You'll probably run out of people, tanks, and/or ammo before you run out of time. 
 
Urban warfare: 

Don't move in the streets. Mouseholing is optimum, then back gardens, then alleyways. Stay out of the streets. Use supporting weapons to create mouseholes and gaps in walls. 

Don't go in through the front door. If you can arrange it start at the top and clear down. 

Suppress every building that has line of sight to your maneuvering force. If you can't suppress or smoke it don't move that way.  
 

[George MC]

9 hours ago, SDG said:

I consider myself a combat mission veteran, played hundreds and hundreds of ours, own all of the titles and completed most of the campaigns.

I thought I give a try to the battle pack (x days of of summer or something) and jeez am i getting my teeth kicked in.

My biggest problem is that AT guns in huge open maps cannot be scouted (even if i have an infantry screen, they remain hidden until my vehicles show up). The only way to locate them is to actually get shot by them.

I am in the first mission and an AT gun just decimated tons of my vehicles from 1,5 kms away because it was shooting from a direction I was not expecting and caught my force from the sides.

I absolutely hate savescumming, and my favourite part of the game is when I can go in blind. I usually just roll with the punches, but this time I had to restart because i lost 2 tanks and 2 apcs (full of with infantry) and an spg on the very first mission of the campaign.

So, any tips on how do you proceed in such an environment (not enough force to form a continous front line and you can be ambushed by a plethora of AT guns from practically anywhere becuse the map is large and flat)?

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

I think @domfluff has given some pertinent advice for dealing with one of the key challenges in this mission. 

Anything I can add at this point risks spoilers, so I'll hang fire for now. But I will add the map is not flat and there is key terrain that allows long line of sight (and correspondingly (line of fire). 

Brille gave some useful tips re using smoke, though keep in mind some of these Panthers are early versions so not all have smoke dischargers. Your attached SPW unit has more reliable smoke dispensing capabilities with the 251/2 and 251/9 tracks. If push comes to shove the grenadiers have smoke grenades. Combine both bits of advice and I'm sure you'll crack this.

Cheery!