Guns vs very Slopped Armor

[JoMac]

I have noticed this through the years...There are occasions where a Gun Round would hit the top of Tank (where armor is thin by very slopped...upwards of 70-90 degrees perpendicular to round striking) and penetrate, rather then deflect off...

Is the Gun Round just crashing through the thin but very slopped armor due to weight of shell alone (no possible deflection), even thou the rounds penetrator itself is barely hitting  (if at all) the armor flush ?

Here is one example below of PZIV with a penetration hit on top of Turret when engaging M4 Sherman at 700 meters (PZIV is facing slightly down hill). I also have had exact situations but with M5 Stuart w/37mm penetrating top of PZIV.

Edited June 18, 2023 by JoMac

[chuckdyke]

If a Soviet AT-Rifle can penetrate the roof of a Tiger I would expect something better from a 75 mm Sherman. The angle looks similar.

Edited June 18, 2023 by chuckdyke

[JoMac]

If it's shooting down on the Roof, then Yes, but not shooting straight and hitting top of armor as it would simply ricochet.

I wonder if the game engine represents the Vehicle as several pixels and any one of those pixels can be counted as a flush hit, regardless of how steep the angle is (similar to CM's LOS through deep woods issue).

Edited June 18, 2023 by JoMac

[womble]

There are, IIRC, projectile-armour interactions where a large projectile making *any* contact with thin enough armour will penetrate. It's one of the things that the nose shape of the AP slug affects. See "APC" and "APCBC" in the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing,_capped,_ballistic_capped_shell

I don't know whether the internal damage model of CMx2 takes into account that the penetrator is only likely to plough through "marginal" systems, or whether that matters... Or even whether it's the case; I could see that a glancing shot like that could dive inside, then ricochet around off the inside of armour designed to keep it out, as it's lost enough energy getting through the top armour and changing its vector, but still has enough oomph (or a bursting charge) to do horrible things to the crew and other gear.

[JoMac]

@womble...Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well...There is still probably enough weight of shell (energy) to smash through thin armor, regardless of angle and causing some damage...Thou, I would suspect lighter rounds like the 37mm to simply ricochet. 

Now, I know that very long ranges shells will actually plummet down on vehicle (especially Gun/Howitzers) with half the time hitting front armor and other half of time hitting top armor at around 70 degrees...I have one set of Wargame Miniature rules from the 1970's which does just that.

*Side Note*

I remember reading an article, that happened during or after 'Battle of Bulge' time frame, that a Jagtiger on a hill shot at a M4 Sherman (think around @1500 meters or so) and the round hit but ricochet off top of turret leaving a dent (M4 Crew were shooked up a little)...This is what I like to see happen more often in CM, where a die roll determines a penetration or a ricochet.

Edited June 18, 2023 by JoMac

[womble]

My recollection of previous times the penetration model has come up tells me that there's something to do with the ratio of the calibre of the round and the thickness of the armour. If the round is sufficiently larger than the armour is thick, the armour just may as well not be there. So yeah, a 37mm will probably spang off the top of a PzIV turret at shallow angles.

Personally I prefer the more deterministic method, flaws an' all. BFC have taken a whole host of factors into account, and their interplay is what a RNG in a less sophisticated model would be abstracting.

[JoMac]

That sounds good enough for me...Just wanted some input from others, like your self.

Thanks for the input, guys.