Long Range Tank Duel

[Vyper]

After reading several good books about various bits of armour, I decided to run a little test and see what the maximum range of these steel monsters are.

Visual: No visuals on enemy tanks occurred outside of approximately 2,500 metres. The Mark IV and Jagdpanzer IV weren't picked up until one or two minutes after their larger brethren made their presence known.

Hit Capability: As would be expected, the higher the muzzle velocity (and to a smaller extend the quality of optics) the better the chance to hit. The Jagdtiger and Panther had the best first round chance (5 to 6% depending on targets profile). The King Tiger came next then the Tiger and M26. The Mark IV's and 75mm Shermans brought up the tail end with 2 to 3% chance. The chance for follow on rounds striking was typically about three times the chance of the first round (21% for the Jagdtiger at 2,450 meters).

Chance to Kill: Again, no surprised, the Jagdtiger totally won this one with the Panther a distant second. The M26 wasn't too far behind then the Tiger.

I was just a touch surprised that the M26 did as well as it did. The 90mm wasn't a bad cannon but it still didn't match the long 75 (from what I've read anyway) and the German optics have always been regarded as 1st class.

I may run the test again with elite crews this time to see how they differ.

Oh, BTW the final result was 12 allied tanks destroyed and 9 Germans. All of the Mark IV's lit up as well as two Tigers and three Jagdpanther IV's. The Jumbo Shermans literally laughed at all attempts to penetrate their frontal armour (but I'll admit the Jagdtigers used most of their AP on the M-26's).

[Fionn]

That Pershing vs the Panther is like a Panther vs a Sherman 76...

It can kill the Panther from virtually any range (especially using Tungsten) while the Panther needs to maneuvre for flank shots really IMO.

[Vyper]

I've read a few accounts that claim kills at over 3,000 metres. I don't know if anyone has ever actually paced or measured the distance but these range of kills can't be duplicated in CM due to spotting distance cutoff.

Will CM2 extend the spotting range to reproduce the occasional very long range duels on the Russian steppes? I'm not too concerned if it doesn't, the present setup covers the vast majority of tactical situations with aplomb.

Is the 90mm a better war weapon than the long German 75? My only point of reference is an anecdotal statement from an M36 crewman who said the gun was a big improvement over the U.S. 76 but not quite a German 75. There wasn't any scientific analysis in this statement so he may be well intentioned but incorrect in his assertion.

BTW, I ran the test again with Elite crewmen. The two Tigers were decimated immediately by a couple of Pershings. The Panthers refused the engagement and backed off the fire line. The mighty Jagdtiger again was the only weapon to defeat the Pershing's steel. The chance of hitting was quite a bit higher than previous with a first round chance at nearly 10% for the German vehicles and 7 to 8% for the Pershings (5-6% for the 76mm). This did show the optical advantage (I think) of the German vehicles better than the regular crew demonstration did.

This program is nothing less than revolutionary. BTS has absolutely redefined wargaming.

[Andre76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vyper:

Hit Capability: (and to a smaller extend the quality of optics) the better the chance to hit.

(...)

German optics have always been regarded as 1st class.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strange, since optics aren't modeled for this game...but your right about german optic being 1. class.

André

[Vyper]

I think you are right Andre. I'm assuming that the 'to hit' calculation is based on gun ballistics and not optics.

[ajbab]

I'm not saying your wrong, but there are some Germans who would disagree with you, they may be full of crap but heres a couple of points they claim, again I can't verify this so take it for what its worth:

Nashorn in Action !

The most notable Nashorn ace was platoon commander of 1st company of sPzJagAbt 519, Junior Lieutenant Albert Ernst. He later commanded the 1st company of sPzJagAbt 512 (equipped with Jagdtigers). On December 23rd of 1943, he destroyed some 14 Soviet tanks in a single day using only 21 round of ammunition. The engagement took place near Vitebsk and Albert Ernst received a nickname "Tiger of Vitebsk". In December of 1943, Ernst destroyed total of 19 enemy tanks and on January 22nd of 1944, he was awarded the Knight's Cross.

In early March of 1945, Lieutenant Beckmann from sPzJagAbt 88 destroyed Soviet IS-2 at the range of 4600 meters near Marzdorf.

Some Nashorn crews reported that they were able to knock out Soviet T-34 tanks at distance as great as 4000 meters. Nashorn crews also reported numerous kills of KV and IS-2 tanks as well as SU-152, ISU-122 and ISU-152 assault guns.

Nashorn was also responsible for the destruction of the only M26 Pershing, destroyed in Europe. Pershing from the 3rd Armored Division was knocked out at the distance of 250 meters with a single shot. This engagement took place in the town of Niehl, north of Cologne on March 6th of 1945.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vyper:

After reading several good books about various bits of armour, I decided to run a little test and see what the maximum range of these steel monsters are.

Visual: No visuals on enemy tanks occurred outside of approximately 2,500 metres. The Mark IV and Jagdpanzer IV weren't picked up until one or two minutes after their larger brethren made their presence known.

Hit Capability: As would be expected, the higher the muzzle velocity (and to a smaller extend the quality of optics) the better the chance to hit. The Jagdtiger and Panther had the best first round chance (5 to 6% depending on targets profile). The King Tiger came next then the Tiger and M26. The Mark IV's and 75mm Shermans brought up the tail end with 2 to 3% chance. The chance for follow on rounds striking was typically about three times the chance of the first round (21% for the Jagdtiger at 2,450 meters).

Chance to Kill: Again, no surprised, the Jagdtiger totally won this one with the Panther a distant second. The M26 wasn't too far behind then the Tiger.

I was just a touch surprised that the M26 did as well as it did. The 90mm wasn't a bad cannon but it still didn't match the long 75 (from what I've read anyway) and the German optics have always been regarded as 1st class.

I may run the test again with elite crews this time to see how they differ.

Oh, BTW the final result was 12 allied tanks destroyed and 9 Germans. All of the Mark IV's lit up as well as two Tigers and three Jagdpanther IV's. The Jumbo Shermans literally laughed at all attempts to penetrate their frontal armour (but I'll admit the Jagdtigers used most of their AP on the M-26's).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Nashorn was also responsible for the destruction of the only M26 Pershing, destroyed in Europe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI, I've seen photos of a Pershing knocked out by a Tiger I (at close range at night, I think) and then a photo of that same Tiger, abandoned, after it ran across some rubble and got its tracks fouled. So the Nashorn cannot have the "only Pershing kill" honor.

Charles

[Silencer]

Vyper,

at +2000m the panther's gun couln'd defeat the perchings front, not without tungsten.

The perching 90mm could do this with tungsten. (and 90mm tungsten was more available then geman.)

still, if you read the acounts on the russian front, kills were far better achieved with less rounds spend.

Why is it that the tanks in CM have to fire a lot more to score a hit at +2000m?

especially HV guns, like the nashorn, a very vulnerable tank, who had to go with a few shots, one kill tactic.

oh, did anyone noticed this: the 128mm HE shell has a greater penetration capability then the 75mm L70 or the 88mm L56!!!

[Vyper]

Interesting stuff. So we may well have to see much longer contact ranges in CM2 to accurately reflect the historical information. I can see that if the current 2,500 metre max visual range is kept, the German long range systems will be at a decided disadvantage.

A good friend of mine is an M1 Battalion commander. He says the optics on the newest M1's will give hit capability out to 10 kilometres. Now that is impressive. Of course, these types of ranges would only be likely in a desert landscape and achieving a hit would be highly dependent on environmentals. On a calm night though, look out.

[ajbab]

Hi Charles you certainly may be right, perhaps the specification of Euorope is significant here. I honestly don't know, if any of these claims are true or exagerated or completely false, perhaps they ment the only Nashorn to get a Pershing, but again just relaying what some of the other side has to say.

As for pictures, I've seen many too. Even a knocked out JagTiger over on its side looking very bashed up. The caption under the photo read " The mighty JagTiger not so tough after all". Speaking to a group of German fellas about this they said "it was proably pushed over by 3 or 4 tanks then blown up through the underside and proably German tanks at that." You decide what you belive, as in most things in life I kind of feel truth is usually in the middle of what two opposing sides say.

By the way this is the best game I've ever played, and its the most and intesting game too. What a great job, things can only get better from here in the War Gaming World.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

FYI, I've seen photos of a Pershing knocked out by a Tiger I (at close range at night, I think) and then a photo of that same Tiger, abandoned, after it ran across some rubble and got its tracks fouled. So the Nashorn cannot have the "only Pershing kill" honor.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[demoss]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

FYI, I've seen photos of a Pershing knocked out by a Tiger I (at close range at night, I think) and then a photo of that same Tiger, abandoned, after it ran across some rubble and got its tracks fouled. So the Nashorn cannot have the "only Pershing kill" honor.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The original quote said "M26 Pershing" - perhaps the Tiger's kill was technically a T26 Pershing?

------------------

-Doug

[PzKpfw 1]

From data from German AA reports from the East, the Tiger1 was scoring first round hits at ranges from 600 - 1200ms on a regular basis.

T-34's were destroyed at ranges upto & beyond 3000ms with 'very little' ammunition expenditure, Ie, 1 Tiger expended 3 SprGr. rounds to destroy an Soviet Artillery piece in an moveing Soviet Coloum at over 4000ms, an Tiger1 killed an IS-1 at 3900ms etc.

Their is no doubt that the quality of German optics were superior to Allied optics Ie, the British MK IV, (The Soviets copied this sight in late 42 early 1943), which improved their fireing at range). The US 3x M70, both of which were good out to 1000yrds but sight picture deteriated beyond that range).

Ie, an report from an M4 Sherman crew in Dec 1944 stated that their Sherman Platoon (75mm & 76mm) could not engage 2 PzKpfw IV's & 1 Stug at 2000ms, as they couldn't see where their rounds were impacting do to sight picture quality, to make adjustments, while the German AFvs pounded them.

Another aspect of this was crew quality, the initial Tiger crew were very highly trained & vetrans for the most part with experience in tanks Stug's etc. As the war dragged on and losses were incurred German crew quality declined, which affected gunnery performance to a degree. German tanks, could engage at greater distances with a better % to hit then Allied tanks.

To digress a bit the main diference in CM2 if BTS decides to adress it will be IMHO engagement ranges, in some areas compared to the West where engagements above 2000ms were rare, they were not rare in the East.

As well as the model for Soviet sights, C&C, lack of radios),Artillery usage(dependance on DF) all of which into mid 1943 were inferior to German practices.

In Late 1943 a shift occurs as the Soviets catch up in doctrine, C&C, radios become more available, better Artillery usage for IF, recon planning, support services, etc.

And then theirs the fact CM is not an tank game but combined arms, so a play balance has to be maintained, you cant just model all tanks & forget theirs grunts their to .

Regards, John Waters

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-03-2000).]