Maximus Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 I'm playing a game of CM the other day, a big bocage scenario, and there came a situation where I had a face-off between a M4A1(76) (same as the Sherman IIa) and one of my Tigers. Well here's the way it played out: Tiger fired and missed. Sherman fired and missed. Tiger fired and got an immobilizing track hit on the Sherman. Sherman fired and missed. Tiger fired and got *another* track hit. Sherman fired and got a ricochet hit. Tiger fired again, getting a penetration hit (don't remember where) but not a KO. Sherman fired again, BAMMO, Tiger erupts in a catostrophic explosion. Now you can imagine what I said, "BULL ****!!!" Com'on, three hits on a Sherman M4A1 with an 88mm cannon and it's still there? I know what you're gonna say..."a bit of bad luck" yeah, yeah I know, but GEEZ! Needless to say, since he wasn't going anywhere, I eventually popped him with another Tiger on the very last turn of the game. Except this time, it only took ONE shot. ------------------ "We're not gonna just shoot the bastards`, we're gonna cut out their living guts, and use them to grease the treads of our tanks." "We're going to murder those lousey hun bastards by the buschel." "The Nazis are the enemy, wade into them, spill their blood, shoot them in the belly." "We are not holding our position, let the hun do that." "We are advancing constantly, we are not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy." "We're gonna hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna kick him in the ass." "We're gonna kick the hell out of him all the time, and we're going to go through him like crap through a goose."--George S. Patton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 "Ah, we build em good in Detroit aye Himmey?" ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 no I'm not going to say that was bad luck? BUT two easy questions: What was range? and what was the experience level of the Tiger crew? Then I'll say "Where's the DAMN German Zeiss optics targeting accuracy bonus for the 88mm " !!!! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 4, 2000 Author Share Posted December 4, 2000 About 150 meters or less. Can't recall the crew experience, I wanna say Veteran, or maybe Regular. I had a Crack Tiger crew that got popped about in the same area, it seemed like he couldn't hit **** either. All of this action took place around the same general area, BTW, on this relatively decent sized map. I lost several tanks in this area, 3 Tigers, 2 or 3 PzIVHs. Being a bocage scenario, his tanks kept darting in and out through bocage areas, if you know what I mean, but these were straight on engagements. Some where surprise shots from the flank, but not directly from the flank, just a little off to the side from front on. But I gave him a bloody nose in the area too, eventually wiped out his armor along with a couple M8 Greyhounds and a small horde of infantry (about a reinforced company I think). It was a good fight there. General Patton would be proud. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lea Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 I had a depleted US inf HQ take out a Tiger head on at about 5m in scattered trees Don't know how they did it, in fact I don't care, their heros! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: About 150 meters or less. Can't recall the crew experience, I wanna say Veteran, or maybe Regular. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-04-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A Sherm at 150 m for an 88 in a Tiger, that should be like "Shooting Fish in a barrel" First shot miss! Phoooey !! I think you might well gripe about that AND then TWO M-Kill Track hits?? I know it won't do any good but if it was a Veteran crew and if it couldn't k-kill an Immobile sherm at 150 meters by the fourth shot then it was indeed VERY VERY bad luck. My problem here is that this kind of thing whenever it comes up is always just put down to "bad Luck" Oh well it it wasn't my battle but I've been equally ticked over similiar events of missed opportunnity on the battle field. That Tiger crew should hang their collective heads in shame! -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 4, 2000 Author Share Posted December 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: That Tiger crew should hang their collective heads in shame! -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They couldn't....they're all dead, remember BIG explosion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 That's nothing I had a reg panther hunt up 15m to a small ridge and fire on an avre 200m away. I targeted the avre before moving to make sure it would fire at it. Of cousre on the way to its firing position a inf sqd retreats across its los at 150m just before it acquired the avre. It proceeds to rotate its turret and fire at the inf. Doh. Then it realizes oh look an avre which begins backing, rotates gun lines up and fires at 32 sec, not even close, shell landed about 50 m short left. Avre fired at inf at the 14 sec mark had the panther los at 26 sec mark. Avre immediately begins to back up and proceeds to fire at 38 sec while moving backwards and at 223m lands the shell only 1 meter behind the panther, only shocking it, but still kind of bad bad luck. Arghhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. Bosco Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 Just my two cents but I really hate it when I get multiple gun or track hits, especially if that vehicle's already gun damaged or immobilized. The track hits I can kind of understand but I think the second or third gun hit ought to be like a normal penetration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Tiger fired and got *another* track hit. Sherman fired and got a ricochet hit. Tiger fired again, getting a penetration hit (don't remember where) but not a KO. ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To be fair to the game the Tiger fired its forth shot and Hit AND penetrated and was then cursed with the extreme poor luck (I guess that was akin to rolling snake eyes twice) of the "penetration without result" I know these very are rare but that's probably where the really bad luck part came in. that penetration without result is rare, hopefully 1 or 2% rare like the weak spot frontal armour penetration, STILL a little BAD luck goes a LONG way in this game. But it SURE is FUN!!! TCP/IP is A Blast !!!! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahauschild Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 We all know that some of the combat results we witness in games just seem to conterdict everything we have read in books and reports. I have learned to live with mortars being better tank killers then AT guns, that Tanks like to do the turret shuffel against infantry when there is a nasty enemy tank dodging in and out of the corner, when two or three 88 guns in some situations fire 10 to 15 rounds at one sherman, and the bugger survives and manages to take them all out. In general the game keeps the spirit of the history, but sometimes it just does not. All i can say is, such is live, such is the game. I still love this game, even given these quirks (and i am sure sombody will reply with pages and pages of scientific calculations why on a tuesday and with rainy weather the 88 could not possibly penetrate a sherman at range 1)but i will continiue playing it, since it is still overall the best simualation for this period out there. Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 once i was playing a gmae and a tiger came out of nowhere and hit my sherman on the first shot. in another a tiger killed my priest, while it was moving. not unexpected? boring story? that's cause out of all the thousands of engagements in cm world, we only hear about the weird events, like that above. "the rains only when i wash the car syndrome." between all of us who post the really bad luck, how many hours have been played where +99% probability events have happened? +99% of the time...how many of those events we posted? very few. the tiger crew had head colds, or the gunner was new, or the sherm had a REALLY good/lucky half-day(before he got popped ) ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show [This message has been edited by russellmz (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltfed Posted December 4, 2000 Share Posted December 4, 2000 OK mebbe the shot passed completely through the Sherman? At that close range it may have been possible. I've heard that had happened where a T34 fer instance had an 88 round go completely through the turret and detonate on the far side of the tank. I don't recall where I'd read that. BTW I think that's one reason why modern Sabot rounds aren't always the best for thin skinned vehicles. While they do some damage the round continues on through without a kill. Anyway maybe that's an option. IMHO ------------------ NCOIC, 718th TFW, www.718tfw.com [This message has been edited by Beltfed (edited 12-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahauschild Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Arent we pulling at straws now. I wish the odd occurences where only 1 % verus 99 % . But i think its more like 10 to 30 percent, pending on the oddity we talking about. But as I said before, live with it. There is only so much we can expect with current programing power from these guys. The game is still great, even if there are a few quirks. Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 5, 2000 Author Share Posted December 5, 2000 I realize that there are still quirks in the game concerning armor combat and all, but getting two track hits in a row seems a bit pretentious too. The gunner should have aimed a little bit higher for the follwing shot don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Russel wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>not unexpected? boring story? that's cause out of all the thousands of engagements in cm world, we only hear about the weird events, like that above. "the rains only when i wash the car syndrome."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yup. Seen it dozens of times on this BBS. People NEVER come here to complain that they got some amazingly great shot that all odds were against. Never. But if the enemy does it you instantly get comments like "Bull ****" I just read a link someone put up here. 5 Shermans fired at a Panther at least 2 times each. Range was about 300m, which is quite close for tank engagements. Yet all 10 shots missed. The tank commander said he still can't believe that he surived without a hit. I am sure the 5 tank commanders on the US side would have agreed. Unfortunately, the Panther they missed knocked out all 5 of them in a couple of minutes... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahauschild Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Maximus, just think of a little storie with it. Otto, the guy in charge of servicing the tank, he looked a bit to deep into the beer barrel the night before. He adjusted the optics a bit to low. Now Fritz, our gunner in that unlucky Tiger also was parting with Otto, and did not relize this, having a major hangover and a belly full of Scheinzhaxen. So he continiued to pound those poor tracks. Works for me to deal with a series of rather unusual situations to put some humor in it. Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Andreas wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But i think its more like 10 to 30 percent, pending on the oddity we talking about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One in three? Come on... that is just silly. Unless your definition of "odd" is greatly different than ours, there is no way you are even close to being correct. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is only so much we can expect with current programing power from these guys.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We could make odd situations like Maximus saw NEVER happen or happen 99% of the time. Totally within our control. The way it is now is as close to realistic as we think we can get. Not because of programming limitations, but because there is no scientific evidence to draw from. he physics, math, and research all point to CM being about right. Unless someone cares to present a comprehensive case as to how CM is flawed I don't see why we should make even a tiny change. Maximus wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The gunner should have aimed a little bit higher for the follwing shot don't you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, perhaps in a perfect world the next shot would have struck true. The odds were STRONGLY in favor of it. But unless it is exactly 100% chance there is always a chance something else will happen. Did you know that tank commanders very often didn't even know they scored a hit, not to mention WHERE the scored it? Especially at this range where the smoke/dust around the firing tank would not have cleared before the round struck. If you don't know where your shot lands you can't adjust for the next shot very well, can you? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raze Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Look at a free-thrower in basketball. First shot is short, adjust and throw again. AND MISS! It happens in the NBA. I'm quite certain it happened on the battlefield. My observations indicate that the 3rd shot is the charm (not always but usually). Just lost a 150mm field piece to a M10 this way. First shot long. Second shot a little closer. Third-BOOM. ------------------ "The art of fighting without fighting..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cav-Scout Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Second Raze's comment about free throws. Lets through in a couple of guys firing shots at the free thrower, and then see how he does Having never been in combat, I can't imagine staring down the barrel of a tank gun at 150 meters and remaining calm and collected, even if it is a pitiful 75mm pea shooter. I'm experiencing alot of bad luck with my armor lately, but that just means when it turns around, I'm gonna be knockin gguys out at etreme range, using my coax to pick off each crew member, knock the tracks off, and maybe even hit and detonate a discarded shell nearby, blowing the tank into the air....it could happen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willmontgomery Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: To be fair to the game the Tiger fired its forth shot and Hit AND penetrated and was then cursed with the extreme poor luck (I guess that was akin to rolling snake eyes twice) of the "penetration without result" I know these very are rare but that's probably where the really bad luck part came in. that penetration without result is rare, hopefully 1 or 2% rare like the weak spot frontal armour penetration, STILL a little BAD luck goes a LONG way in this game. But it SURE is FUN!!! -tom w <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In my current PBEM battle one of my 'schreck teams had an M8 HMC lined up for the kill. First shot: turret penetration but no kill. End of turn; next turn. Second shot: turret penetration but no kill. There ensued a sadly comic mini-drama in which the 'schreck team ran wildly about until the M8 sent them both (both members of the team) to their reward with a single shot from its main armament. ------------------ "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre." [This message has been edited by willmontgomery (edited 12-04-2000).] [This message has been edited by willmontgomery (edited 12-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahauschild Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 Sorry if I was not totaly clear. I stated depending the oddity we talking about. For instance the fact that mortars seem to be very accurate tank killers. Yes i understand that hitting the top armor will most likley cause a knock out on many tanks, but the actual part of hitting the tank, at times while moving with a mortar is happening to often. I have not checked these results since the patch, but before the results on mortars was a bit ..hmm...to frequent. Then again I have never fired a mortar before, and maybe they are as accurate as the game displayes them, hitting at 500 meters on the first shot a moving target dead on. (again, this may be fixed, have not tested it again) The actual fire result on the Tiger not being able to knock out a Sherman at 150 meter range does not happen 30% of the time...odds are much lower. Sorry for the miscomminication. Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 What this shows is more urban legend than poor programming. You are playing with a bunch of Tigers. Urban legend has that they could drive across water in lakes, shoot B29s from the air with their cannons, never missed, and had a 70000 round ammunition capacity along with every other advantage you could heap on it. Then you have one get cacked, and all of a sudden urban legend runs up against reality. Fact is: Tiger Woods (another sort of Tiger) shoots a few off the green from time to time. Micheal Jordan misses free throw shots. Bobby Fischer lost a chess game to a 17 year old who had never played the game before. In baseball, a .300 average means a .700 miss rate. So, the urban legend that a Tiger is invincible is exactly that, and urban legend. In reality Tigers died on the battle field, or else the German Army would still be equipped with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 If there's any chance to miss the laws of probability are going to catch up with you eventually and some really bad luck is going to occur, just like horribly bizarre things happen to people in "real life." I was playing my friend once in Star Fleet Battles and he rolled five sixes at close range with his disruptors, a 1 - 5 would have been a hit. By my calcs that's about a 1 in 7776 chance! My return salvo was only average but it was enough to win. Another possibility that I can think of is that the random number generation isn't exactly random. Our Turbo Pascal compiler that tended to roll numbers less than 3 (out of 100) about three times as often as it was supposed to. After we noticed that some rare events seemed to occur too often we spent an evening running off hit results and plotting the averages. Bingo compiler error! So we flipped the equations and used high numbers to simulate rare events. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted December 5, 2000 Share Posted December 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>not unexpected? boring story? that's cause out of all the thousands of engagements in cm world, we only hear about the weird events, like that above. "the rains only when i wash the car syndrome."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But russell what would the board be without another opportunity for aka_tom_whinger (surely that's what the 'w' is for) cheerleader for Zeiss optics (as if every other german optics manufacturers didn't exist) and other things ubergerman to snipety, snipety, snipe.... ..and no tom that grin is not for you, you'll take your curry and enjoy it. ------------------ "Labrat, you're a genius"- Madbot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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