Cry Havoc!

[Publius]

I've been playing the WWII CM games since the early days, but have ignored modern warfare until the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Obviously, Black Sea represents a major learning curve for someone who hasn't played a modern warfare game since the old Avalon Hill Arab and Israeli Wars title.

Several turns into this scenario, I had lost both drones, a helicopter, and my F-16.  In real life, I would have pulled the plug right there, but I figured that would be an automatic loss, so I decided to press forward.  I laid down a smoke screen in front of objectives Honey Badger and Wolverine and made a mad rush towards Honey Badger.  I took Honey Badger at heavy cost, with literally three infantry troopers left.  I ended up suffering a major defeat and I was surprised by how many Russians were left on the map at the end.  I went back to see what would have happened if I had asked for a cease fire after the F-16 was shot down and I would have suffered a total defeat.  But at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that the additional 54 casualties, two tanks, and 10 other vehicles lost was worth the difference between total and major defeat.  

 

[danfrodo]

5 minutes ago, Publius said:

I've been playing the WWII CM games since the early days, but have ignored modern warfare until the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Obviously, Black Sea represents a major learning curve for someone who hasn't played a modern warfare game since the old Avalon Hill Arab and Israeli Wars title.

Several turns into this scenario, I had lost both drones, a helicopter, and my F-16.  In real life, I would have pulled the plug right there, but I figured that would be an automatic loss, so I decided to press forward.  I laid down a smoke screen in front of objectives Honey Badger and Wolverine and made a mad rush towards Honey Badger.  I took Honey Badger at heavy cost, with literally three infantry troopers left.  I ended up suffering a major defeat and I was surprised by how many Russians were left on the map at the end.  I went back to see what would have happened if I had asked for a cease fire after the F-16 was shot down and I would have suffered a total defeat.  But at the end of the day, I'm not convinced that the additional 54 casualties, two tanks, and 10 other vehicles lost was worth the difference between total and major defeat.  

 

Sounds like some of my first Black Sea battles.  Fortunately, unlike Putin's officers you have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes.  I was big WW2 also until just a 2-3 years ago. 
I still don't have a good answer on how to keep one's drones alive if there's AA assets about.  Before I can use the drone to target the baddies my drone is usually down.  But when the drone is not shot down, it's clobberin' time! 

I don't have any magical insights to give though I do think that spending time w Shock Force 2 is a good way to at least get used to your modern units, weapons, & proper tactics on a less lethal playing field. 

 

 

[domfluff]

Some thoughts on this:

The US has three drones in Black Sea. Raven and Shadow can be shot down by Tunguska, whereas Gray Eagle (in Observe mode) cannot.

The difference in QB cost is huge. The smaller drones are baseline 419 points, and the Gray Eagle starts at 2075. Clearly for a scenario you use whatever assets you have, but it's still an interesting comparison.

419 is still a lot - that's more expensive than a Bradley - so it's not a capability to be throwing away. There's some concept of using a pair of cheap drones to bait out the anti-air, but "cheap" is the hurdle there. If you're in a situation where air power is a core capability for you, then giving up a drone to saturate the approximate area the AA came from with artillery can be a good trade. Artillery is clearly a useful answer once the Tunguska is spotted.

DEAD missions (i.e., point-targeting the location of a spotted Tunguska with air assets) can be quite effective, and fast jets at least will kill fairly reliably. The same applies to the Gray Eagle itself on an attack run.

[Stardekk]

On 4/18/2022 at 10:40 AM, domfluff said:

Some thoughts on this:

The US has three drones in Black Sea. Raven and Shadow can be shot down by Tunguska, whereas Gray Eagle (in Observe mode) cannot.

The difference in QB cost is huge. The smaller drones are baseline 419 points, and the Gray Eagle starts at 2075. Clearly for a scenario you use whatever assets you have, but it's still an interesting comparison.

419 is still a lot - that's more expensive than a Bradley - so it's not a capability to be throwing away. There's some concept of using a pair of cheap drones to bait out the anti-air, but "cheap" is the hurdle there. If you're in a situation where air power is a core capability for you, then giving up a drone to saturate the approximate area the AA came from with artillery can be a good trade. Artillery is clearly a useful answer once the Tunguska is spotted.

DEAD missions (i.e., point-targeting the location of a spotted Tunguska with air assets) can be quite effective, and fast jets at least will kill fairly reliably. The same applies to the Gray Eagle itself on an attack run.

Don't point target with Apaches though, only with the Grey Eagle and fixed wing air. CM CAS is very underdeveloped so the Apache will engage with the 30mm instead of something like hellfires, which just exposes him for no reason. 

"Several turns into this scenario, I had lost both drones, a helicopter, and my F-16.  In real life, I would have pulled the plug right there, but I figured that would be an automatic loss, so I decided to press forward." Again, CM CAS in the modern titles is very underdeveloped, planes and helicopters attack like they are gonna do a WW2 rocket run instead of using actual modern tactics or using standoff. In BS you atleast havea chance to destroy AA with the Grey Eagle, in CW you will have no chance at all doing anything with CAS even if you have F16s with AGM-65s against Shilkas.