Tanks, Tactics and Engagement rings

[Casual_Insanity]

Howdy Y'all 

I am rather new to combat mission and rather unfamiliar with the usage of armor. 

I am currently playing NTC tank (1979) training scenario and was wondering if anyone could explain to or (point me where to look) me what are the ranges I should trying to engage Ivan at with my high tech rock throwers. 

Also if anyone knows some good references for tank tactics, i would much appreciate it if you could point me to them.

 

-Casual Insanity

[Centurian52]

For the most part in Combat Mission if you can see it you can shoot it, although accuracy will drop off at longer ranges. But even at longer ranges the chance of hitting usually isn't so low as to make it not worth taking the shot (unless you've cooked up a plan that requires extra sneakyness). ATGMs have harder limits on their range, but they will all be able to engage at at least 1 kilometer, and most of them will be able to engage at much greater ranges.

As far as tactics, I've got some WW2 field manuals that go into detail on German, Soviet, and American tank tactics that I got from the Nafziger collection. They are 40 years out of date for CMCW, but the basic principles still apply. In general combined arms is the key. Everything is stronger when working together. Of course that doesn't apply to the NTC tank missions, since combined arms really require that you have more than one kind of arm, and those missions only have tanks. For those missions I'd just say spread out and try to control the long sightlines (a.k.a. take the high ground). I also like to avoid cresting ridges one tank at a time, since that runs a danger of an enemy behind the ridge destroying my forces one tank at a time. So I like to form into a line before cresting a ridge in order to get all of my guns pointed at whoever is behind that hill at the same time. Maintaining spacing between vehicles is also helpful. I like to follow the German WW2 doctrine of at least 50 meters between vehicles (available space permitting).

https://nafzigercollection.com/product/german-panzer-tactics-in-world-war-ii-combat-tactics-of-german-armored-units-from-section-to-regiment/

https://nafzigercollection.com/product/soviet-armored-tactics-in-world-war-ii-the-tactics-of-the-armored-units-of-the-red-army-from-individual-vehicles-to-battalions-according-to-the-combat-regulations-of-february-1944/

https://nafzigercollection.com/product/employment-of-tanks-with-infantry-fm-17-36/

https://nafzigercollection.com/product/american-tank-company-tactics-fm-17-32/

Edited September 17, 2021 by Centurian52

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Casual_Insanity said:

I am rather new to combat mission and rather unfamiliar with the usage of armor. 

In concert with artillery and infantry. Use the analog of a game of chess. Combined arms is the queen.  

[domfluff]

3 hours ago, Casual_Insanity said:

Howdy Y'all 

I am rather new to combat mission and rather unfamiliar with the usage of armor. 

I am currently playing NTC tank (1979) training scenario and was wondering if anyone could explain to or (point me where to look) me what are the ranges I should trying to engage Ivan at with my high tech rock throwers. 

Also if anyone knows some good references for tank tactics, i would much appreciate it if you could point me to them.

 

-Casual Insanity

Cold War AT ranges are fairly consistent across both factions, and are in basically three bands.

Short range is dictated by the range of the RPG-7 and LAW, and are about 300m.
Medium range is defined by the range of the Dragon and AT-7/SPG-9, and is about 1000m
Long range is defined by TOWs and AT-4/AT-5s, and is 2000m+

Armour in this period slots in between the medium and long range, so engagements at around 1500m are fairly typical. The gunnery is still WW2-level for the most part, so longer ranged shots will be very inaccurate, and kinetic penetrators will lose much of their energy at extreme range. I've seen tank duels at 3-4km between M60A1 and T-62 (tanks which can typically kill each other pretty easily) where the kinetic rounds are mostly bouncing off, simply due to the distances involved.

That's the basic answer to your question, but it's worth discussing some complexities:

The Soviet tanks in 1979-1980 are, broadly, superior to the US armour. The T-62 (1975), for example, has similar armour to an M60A1, but has a laser rangefinder (rather than the optical co-incidence rangefinder than the M60 has), and a gun with a significantly higher velocity. That will mean a flatter trajectory, so greater accuracy and penetration. The situation for the US broadly gets worse with the T-64 and up, since there is a significant uptick in armour, and the composite turret makes the available HEAT rounds mostly ineffective from the front. 

The HEAT rounds do not rely on kinetic energy, so weapons that can deliver HEAT over distance are obviously useful - the most accurate way to deliver a HEAT round over distance is an ATGM, and this is the logic behind the development of the M60A2 Starship. This vehicle was obsolete pretty much by the time it was deployed, owing to the changes in Soviet armour with the T-64, but the desire to take these extreme-range engagements is a reasonable one.

Those NTC training scenarios are the only all-armour scenarios I've actually enjoyed in CM, mostly as the terrain is excellent, and the opponent has a chance to actually win. The point of them really is to show the development of armour across the period, and partly to show quite how ridiculously dominant the Abrams are in 1982. That latter scenario is neither particularly interesting nor fun, but I think it's an important step in the conceptual process behind CM: Cold War.

In terms of tactics, the US is really built on these combined arms companies. Something like two platoons of mechanised infantry, a tank platoon, a couple of TOW launchers and some organic mortars. This unit is a self-contained, self-sufficient fighting element, which is useful since the assumption was that these would be overrun.

This is a really good reference for that, in this period:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=My8-u2rYNVoC

Broadly though, the TOWs define your area of influence, since they're your long ranged firepower. The infantry define the space you're fighting in, protecting flanks and holding ground, and the armour is a mobile concentration of power, either the thrust of your main effort, or a mobile reserve.

The 5-tank platoon should typically split into two fireteams of 3 and 2, with one covering the movement of the other. It's important especially against the Soviets to use terrain to mask your movement, and to use the terrain to control your engagements - there will typically be more Soviet tanks than US tanks, and they're superior to your armour, so you can't take them head-on. You need to set up situations where you have local superiority in firepower and numbers. 

[domfluff]

As an aside the ranges are a large reason why Cold War is such a strong title, assuming you're playing on a sufficiently large map. 1km for squad-level ATGMs means that on a map that has at least 3km in one direction, there's suddenly a ton of room for manoeuvre. You don't have the CMSF problem of your Abrams platoon rolling out from the deployment zone to a decent hill and just sitting there until the match is over. The 4km maps that CM can manage are arguably a little too small for Black Sea and Shock Force (and most of their maps in game, especially Quick Battle maps, are far too small - 6km might be fine), but they suit Cold War perfectly, and give you plenty of room for a battalion-sized Soviet force to do it's thing.

[ZPB II]

In the NTC 1979 scenario, your US tanks have a weaker gun and weaker armor, but have better spotting and better comms. Instead of trying to match guns with plates, seek out to leverage C&C to outspot and outmanouver your opponent. If you try to trade by sheer volume at long range, it will be statistically unfavorable. Ideally whenever an enemy tank crests or approaches in a narrow, several of your tanks will be engaging a single target with volume, or get a good ambush shot.

Some simple rules: at any feasible range at any aspect any US tank is in mortal danger and can blow up at any second from an unseen ATGM or sabot. Soviet big guns and ATGMs will kill. Generally you can only afford to favorably trade at long range if you can leverage mobile TOW assets in good cover, they're incredibly accurate and deadly at extreme ranges. Otherwise, the Soviet heavy turret front advantage with T-64/72/80 vs. lots of your common penetrators will show, the 105mm gun on US tanks kind of sucks and there was a panic to replace it with 120mm. You should always be trying to outmanouver instead of outgun.

Soviet ATGMs will, when properly utilized, absolutely mess up your tanks at long range. I've had great success taking out all US kit in CW with AT-3/4/5/6.

I highly recommend leveraging all the mobile TOW platforms (infantry TOWs are too cumbersome, the crew will get suppressed when guiding and destroyed soon after.) The TOW is the premier long range antitank sniping tool in CW. The optics mean it spots amazingly well, it's incredibly accurate and it's rare to see anything survive a hit. It will enable you to reach out and touch things you want removed. I've had tremendous success with even the measly TOW jeep, it is so damn good as a mobile flanker in meeting engagements and other situations where you control the info space. When that tiny jeep peeks out from the bushes, it will routinely outspot especially buttoned up Soviet heavies and proceed to oneshot them while reversing away from danger. Unfortunately it seems like it's bugged and not available as single vehicle purchase in QB, only in formations. (OPFOR BRDM AT-3/AT-5s are also a favorite of mine when used similarly)

The hammerhead M113 is amazingly good at trading with tanks when the range is 3km+

As always, you want to have a light infantry screen enabling all your battlefield actions. Try to maintain good comms between your tanks, tank hunters, recon elements and their HQs so your dudes will win the spotting game. Consistently winning in CM is all about thinking in terms of command and communication. The better you facilitate your Command & Control the more often you will outspot your enemy leading to outgun & outmanouver outcomes.

One of the reasons I like CW so much is that a lot of kit that was rather useless previously, mainly recon stuff like BRDMs and Jeeps are quite useful now and I always buy some in QBs.

Edited September 17, 2021 by ZPB II

[Casual_Insanity]

Thank you all your inputs as they have been very informative and helpful for me.

I will let y'all know how i fair in the battle taking into account what yall have told me.

 

Domfluff and Centurian58, thanks for the links to reading material, I will give them a read when get chance.

 

-Casual Insanity

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

There's a whole thread dedicated to reading material, this comment in particular has links to the appropriate field manuals from the time period. I'd recommend FM 71-7 The Tank and Mechanized Infantry Company Team (1977) as a good starting point, it really helped me.

Pre-reading recommendations

 

[domfluff]

Yeah, that’s the one I linked above- it’s one of the more useful for Cold War in general (as company level manuals tend to be)

[Centurian52]

Your options in the NTC tank missions are fairly limited since tanks are the only thing you have. But when you get into the other missions, as has been mentioned before, combined arms is the name of the game. Each arm has different strengths and weaknesses. If we had an arm that could do everything better than every other arm, we would only have that one arm. When they work together they augment each other's strengths, and cover for each other's weaknesses. As you gain experience you will develop your own tactics, but that will be easier if you have a good understanding of each of the arms under your command.

The most important arms available to you in Combat Mission are: infantry, tanks, artillery, and aircraft. I would also add in ATGMs (for the modern titles)/AT guns (for the WW2 titles), since they are a distinct and critical tool in your kit.

Infantry are the queen of battle. They are sneakier than your tanks, and have better situational awareness. They are essential for clearing woods, buildings, and trenches where the enemy could easily remain hidden from your tanks. They are also very useful for spotting potential threats to your tanks before they spot you. Their weaknesses are that they are soft, squishy humans who will die quickly to anything that can spot and hit them, and they lack heavy firepower of their own. They will need the help of tanks and artillery to achieve fire superiority.

Artillery is the king of battle. Your artillery accounts for the majority of your firepower. It is useful for leveling buildings, destroying identified ATGM positions, and suppressing enemy infantry positions. Its weaknesses are that it has no eyes of its own (it relies on forwards observers to spot and relay targets) and it isn't available at a moment's notice (it will take several minutes to arrive). With cluster munitions available it is significantly more useful against tanks and other armored vehicles than in other titles, but that is still a relative statement (AFVs have good odds of getting through a target area if they just spread and keep moving). They are also unlikely to get every last man in an entrenched position, so if you want an area clear you will need to follow up the bombardment with an infantry assault.

Your aircraft work similarly to artillery in Combat Mission, in that they need an observer on the ground to call them in. They don't carry as much firepower as your artillery, but they have the advantage of being able to spot and aim at specific targets. They can hit targets that you can't see yet and that your tanks don't have a line of fire on. But like artillery they aren't readily available at a moment's notice, and will take several minutes to come in. There is also a danger of them getting shot down by enemy anti-air assets. 

Your tanks account for the majority of your readily available firepower. They have the firepower to destroy anything on the battlefield. Their main guns can clear out enemy armored vehicles, as well as deal with infantry in buildings and bunkers. And their machineguns will shred infantry that are caught out in the open. Their weaknesses are that they are very large and hard to hide, and they have poor situational awareness (the crew see the world through a handful of vision ports and periscopes). They will need the help of infantry to provide security against ambushes and to have the best chance of spotting the enemy before they spot you.

ATGMs (anti-tank guided missiles)/AT guns. These are your primary anti-tank asset. The greatest threat to your tanks isn't other tanks, but ATGMS (although other tanks are probably the second greatest threat to your tanks). When I spot an enemy tank I always prefer to kill it with an ATGM if I can, rather than with one of my own tanks. Since a tank on tank engagement is a fair fight, and I prefer to avoid fair fights when possible. ATGMs will either be mounted in vehicles or carried by infantry. When carried by infantry they share the advantages of infantry in that they will be very sneaky and easy to conceal. But infantry carried ATGMs also share the weaknesses of infantry in that they are squishy and easy to kill. Vehicle mounted ATGMs are harder to conceal than infantry carried ATGMs, but are still usually smaller and easier to hide than tanks. The main advantage to vehicle mounted ATGMs is that they are significantly more mobile. While ATGMs are deadly against tanks, they are pretty useless against infantry. When it comes to the WW2 titles you have AT guns instead of ATGMS. AT guns aren't tremendously less effective than ATGMs, and you mostly use the same tactics to employ or deal with them. The differences are that AT guns are significantly less mobile than ATGMs and they aren't as abundant.

I should also mention anti-air for completeness sake, but it honestly isn't hard to use them. Just keep them behind your main battle line, where the enemy ground forces can't see or shoot them, and where they have a good view of the skies (don't place them in thick woods or inside a building where they can't see the sky), and then just leave them there all mission and they will do fine.