Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

-Andrew...amazed that this forum can get so abusive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is an old German proverb, that could roughly be translated as:

The way you call into the forest, it will echo back.

I found MG's posts quite rude, and not appreciating that other people actually spend time and thought on replying to him sincerely. If he had given me the least bit of an impression that he was actually listening, I would not have posted my earlier post. I don't think that it is impossible to have reasoned discussion on this forum, but that takes both sides willing to engage. Something I for one have yet to see from MG.

Simply not reading his posts is also not an option, because the replies to them from Steve, Charles and others are very informative, but they have to be taken in context. Therefore I unfortunately have to read MG's posts if I want to learn something from the others.

Abusive, probably. Undeserved, certainly not.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest Big Time Software]

CM's HMG42 Teams have roughly 4000 rounds assigned to them by default. I found a pretty definate number for this somehwere almost 2 years ago (ugh... have we been working on this THAT long!!), it was backed up by at least one other source. Charles and I did the math and it checks out.

BTW, German ammo boxes were specially designed so that two could be carried in one hand. That means a single soldier could carry (with some difficulty, like we simulate) 1,000 rounds all by himself. If three men in a HMG42 Team carried such a load you get 3,000 rounds right there.

Realistically such Teams would have a variety of ammo loads depending on supply and inteneded role, and this can be adjusted +/- in the Scenario Editor. In fixed defensive positions they would have probably more than this unless they had recently been engaged in heavy fire and had not yet been resupplied.

Steve

[RMC]

But Romero spent a lot longer on daikatana!

[Guest Big Time Software]

When someone doesn't listen, is abusive, and disrespectfull we have two options:

1. Ban the guy and save us all a lot of headaches and time.

2. Allow the forest to echo back (nice saying BTW ).

While #1 is very tempting, we don't want to get onto any slippery slopes of censorship. So we are stuck with #2. As long as it doesn't get out of hand, and the person who is responsible for the mess is really trying to be a trouble maker, this is the best way to let things happen. Because if I am going to ban or censor someone it will NOT be those who are responding to the original source of the problem (unless the response is totally out of line). That would be like banning treatment of cancer instead of cutting out the tumor

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

RMC, that made me crack up I just heard some review gave it 1.5 stars too! After all the hooplah and news articles covering the debacle surrounding them, this was nothing short of hilarious. Unfortunately, it is also a Poster Child for what is wrong with the computer games industry. Money is spent like it was coming out of a faucet, and with little more thought than what is involved to turn the faucet on.

Steve

[TeAcH]

Well, I've read through this whole post and wasn't going to add anything until I read your last post Steve.

I agree that banning is not an option...period. The more discussion the better right?

It's too bad actually that the debate degenerated as it did. For I think that accuracy in this game is the key. It is what makes this game so fun and unique...the accuracy. It just adds a whole sense of reality to the game(s) (reality within the proper context that is).

Look, I enjoyed reading the debate. I think it is healthy. One thing of immense consideration is though, that the minute we think we know EVERYTHING, we will never accept someone else's point of view..no matter how right they are...and that goes for Steve AND MG Mann.

It's true that Steve and Charles have allowed gamer's input and responded quickly which is unprecendented in game design. I've never seen it before. But, there are people out there (and MG may be one of them) who are experts in ONE area or another. Just because they may be some cantankerous poster with a mediocre grasp of the English language, doesn't mean the information and its usefullness for the game is worthless.

TeAcH

[This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 06-04-2000).]

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I saw that there was a reference to what I would call the "casualty ratio" on the Eastern Front. I was planning a far longer post on this subject, and the subject of combat effectiveness on the Eastern Front, in a few weeks time but here are some of the basic figures resulting from recent research by people like David Glantz and John Erickson.

Casualty ratio Soviets to Germans.

Up to 1 July 1943 6.08/1

From 1 July 1943 to 1 April 1945 1.65/1

(i.e. not including the round up in April May 1945)

If you run the attrition equations regarding daily loss rates produced by Trevor Dupuy you find the German combat effectiveness against the Soviets, in the second half of the war, was very slightly less than against the British and Americans. The Soviets per 1000 man combat team were very slightly more effective than the Western allies. But the Western allies, the Soviets and the Germans were all very similar by the autumn of 1943 to the end of the war.

More on this subject later when work on MC2 is well on the way.

All the best,

Kip.

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[Guest grunto]

-CM's HMG42 Teams have roughly 4000 rounds assigned to them by default. -

then i would say all your ducks are in a row on this one... besides anyone who's ever played sl/asl knows mmg/hmg units move slower -g-...

btw.. the light mg capability within each squad is nice... i often hear mg42 fire and it's not coming from any of the heavy units or pillboxes.. but from the squads... gives 'em that extra punch once in awhile...

andy

[MG Mannschft]

Black Horse.

In repsonce to your Combat action Book, That takes actual Accounts of german soldiers fighting the the eastern front. I would have to say that this was not a reuglar company of german machine gunners, as it sounds there was either alot of captured russian sub-machine guns which there where ambundant quantanties or this company was a mix of several other comapaies inwhich they had an ambunadance of sub-machine gunners. We can Find No TRAINING Manual or acutal german refference to a German Trained Sub-Machine gun Squad. In your analysis, the refferneces are totally out of the Norm For an a assualt made by a Machine Gun and Rifle Squad. It dosent speicfy the type of sub machine gun they used. Which makes me belive that they where not standard issue.

By the account that you give, it is obvious that the german forces were extremly flexable taking into your account that by your won information given. But that dosent rule out the normal proceduese that where followed out that time. Read "The German Infantry Handbook" (Alex Buchner) it will make you aware of standerd operating proceduere.

[Guest Big Time Software]

TeAcH,

Sorry, but when someone comes here and is instantly disrespectful of all that we have done (BTW, this is not MG's first time doing this), does not listen to others, and in general has a poor attitude the discussion is not going to be a positive one even if I should pucker up and kiss ass. I still listen, but I absolutely will not give someone respect who has not earned it.

I have no idea if MG is a native English speaker (he is in the US though), but grasp of the English language has nothing to do with anything. Many of our posters speak hardly any English, but they none-the-less make a positive contribution here. In fact, it is difficult to be effectively rude and disrespectful in another language unless you really know what you are doing.

I'm not saying that I know everything, but I also do not think of MG as some sort of expert who is beyond question. I am not the only one who thinks he is wrong, including guys who have done for a living what MG does on the odd weekend or two.

Steve

[TeAcH]

Point taken and well made. Was not aware of past trouble with him. Certainly wouldnt want anyone's ass kissed even if they haven't been a former "pot stirrer". Thanks Steve.

TeAcH

[Ron]

MG

This is from 'Handbook on German Military Forces' by the US War Dept. The information sources come from intelligence gathered during the war, including Ultra, captured weapons, after-action reports and prisoners. While not 100% accurate as has been noted before, it does give a reasonable account. The following is abbreviated:

Infantry Company, Volksgrenadier Division

Co HQ 6 men

1st SMG Plat 33 men 5 Rifles 26 SMGs 3 LMGs

2nd SMG Plat ditto

3rd Rif Plat 33 men 20 Rifles 9 SMGs 3 LMGs

SMG Platoon, Volksgrenadier Division

Plat HQ 6 men

SMG squad 9 men 9 SMGs

SMG squad 9 men 9 SMGs

Rif squad 9 men 3 Rifles 5 SMGs 1 LMG

There's also a Heavy weapons company in the Battalion which includes HMG platoons, a mortar platoon and an IG platoon.

HMG Plat 29 men 4 HMGs

So clearly SMG squads existed and the role of the MG42 is delinated between light and heavy as has been explained in this thread earlier. I see this reflected in CM and wonder what you see blatantly 'wrong' as expressed in your posts? Or do you dismiss the US War Dept. book as being in error?

Regards,

Ron

[MG Mannschft]

Steve,

You did not infact give me a Reliable Reffernce to Training MP-40 armed squad and not the Field Modifican that Blackhorse Described. A German reffence with Title and Author, Not The American "Handbook" that we also have, and Not the 2 Years ago thing where you thought you saw it some where.

I Am interested in gathering imformation from Origanal scorces, in this case Origanal German, contempary that is. I Am not interested in somebodies idea of what Happened. If you can name me Titles and Authors I will find those Scorces and verify the contents. Otherwise, You are talking through your hat. That means you have no valid factual imformation from the Time. Which means that if you are going to repesent as close as you can to a actual fighting unit, you should know and have your facts strait, and be able to back up your words. I have by naming just one title and I have more Titles that back up our words.

IE: "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Buchner.

"Uniforms, Organization, and History of the Waffen-SS" Vol. 1 to 5 James Bender Publishing

"Grenaiders" Kurt Meyer

"German Combat Equipments 1939-45" Gordon Rottman

"Der Rekruit" German WWII Maunal

"My Lotality is my Honor" Gordon Williamson

Etc..Etc...Etc.

I Am looking for acurate imformation. I'm not out to tear your game apart I'm trying to give you more accurate imformation so you can make the game better. So I'm offering constructive critisium and more scorces of imformation. I Realize that you and your Crew have put alot of work into this game. So Please if you have other scorces of contemporay information, Please Tell me about them by Title and Author.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

TSS:

As far as Quoting Statitics of the Numbers lost, and the ratios bettween germans and russians the Numbers of actual Combatents between them was Determened by the total number of actual combat troops on the line in a area on the german side compared to the actual number of combatents on the line on the Russian side. If you have 1 German for every 15 russians falling in combat. That Ratio Is determend not by the total Number killed on both sides but the ratio bettwen how many where facing how many others. In the case of Combat inbetween the russians and the germans during wwii, the germans lost 1 for every 15 that where killed in action. The Russians never failed to use overwheling numbers to die beacuse they could afford it.

MG

[Guest Big Time Software]

Sorry, but I have no interest in doing any more research. I did that 2 years ago. I have better things to do with my time, like go grab some dinner.

I put it to you. We have a source that CAN NOT BE DISMISSED out of hand. You find me a source that disputes this and then we will make a change. What I mean by "disputes" is one that specifically gives the TO&E for a Volksgrenaider platoon/company which is different than what we have. Otherwise, the Handbook reference stands unchallenged.

BTW, the Handbook does have minor errors, but I have yet to see it totally screw up a major thing like the TO&E of a whole division. Since the Handbook was the product of contemporary first hand information, you can not dismiss it as a whole because of minor mistakes here and there. Most historical sources contain minor mistakes, so that is not grounds for outright dismissal.

And it is utterly pointless to go quoting sources like you did (especially since two deal exclusively with the Waffen SS and almost all were written post-war by non-Germans). Nothing you mentioned disproves what we have in the game. Charles and I have probably $15,000 in WWII books between the two of us, so please stop pretending like we don't have information to draw from.

I also find this challenge of yours to be pretty interesting seeing as your arguments that the HMG 42 Team is really just a smaller rifle squad was utterly unsupported by facts.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-04-2000).]

[MG Mannschft]

Steve,

Once again, I Will support my view of active german troops during WWII by saying we are using scorces that are from the Origanal german And the Knowelege the Allies had was not avable to them at the time The TM was Written, It was NOT a Post War Book. Since the war was still going on, If you think that the german POW's where open to disscuss german Tacitics on their enemy at that time, you might as well call every german POW a Traitor, They would not Give out that Imformation. So the Allies in Turn conjected most of the Imformation by Battling with the german Forces at that time. You must remember that they where confronting a german force of inferior quality compared to their advancing army from 1940 to the Battle of Kursk. Remember as an actual battle account during the battle of the buldge when the germans decided to amass and attack the allied army, the Allies comment was "When they decide to attack, you just get out of their way."

With $15,000 of books, Cant you quote on of them other then your Precious TM? Give me some Information such as Title and Author. You dont even have to look in the book.

If you are done researching. Dont make another Game.

I am after Real Information, Please Help me.

MG

[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

I am after Real Information, Please Help me.

MG

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You already have your "real" information, so stop asking.

[Guest Big Time Software]

MG Mannschft,

Let's make this very simple. Steve has plainly stated that we're using the Handbook on German Military Forces as our source for the German SMG squad. Quibble with that if you like, but we challenge you to produce the following: A full divisional TO&E for the German Volksgrenadier, down to and including the squad level with breakdown of individual small arms.

Is that clear enough for you?

How many times does Steve have to ask you for it before you understand?

We have such a reference in the Handbook. We think it is correct. It's possible that there's a mistake, but you must show us another reference that directly refutes it before we can responsibly discount the information in the Handbook. All you have shown so far is personal conjecture. If the best you can do is say that you don't think the Handbook is accurate, but cannot point us toward a reference that contains a complete Volksgrenadier divisional TO&E, then you're just blowing hot air.

Show us the data and then we will listen. It is now your turn to do some research.

Charles

[CEO]

I have a book titled: The German Order of Battle Infantry in World War II (ISBN 1-85367-393-5) which contains Divisional TO&E for all German Inf. Divisions (granted, not all the info. is there, usually just down to how many companies, battalions, Regiments in division with LMGs and HMGs usually listed). Below is a quote from the entry for the 544th Volks Grenadier Division:

"1st and 2nd Infantry Battalion

1 Battalion Staff (1 LMG)

1 Supply Company (1 LMG)

3 Infantry Companies (9 LMG ea)

2 Submachinegun platoons

1 Heavy Company (8 HMGs, 1 LMG, 4 75mm leIG and 6 81mm mortars)"

Now most of the references used for this book are captured German Documents and other books I don't have time to write in here.

Now I THINK that since it mentions SPECIFICALLY 2 Submachinegun platoons and HMGs, that this lends more weight to Charles and Steve 's arguments. Why would it SPECIFICALLY call out SMG platoons, if they did not exist (unless it is wrong).

Now here is another quote from the book about Volks Grenadier Divisions (a "generic" organization):

"...The division had a battalion of obsolete 75mm field guns to make up for a shortfall in 105mm howitzers, and all the artillery batteries were reduced to three guns each. However, the infantry was equiped with LARGE (my emphasis) numbers of submachineguns and anti-tank weapons - the Panzerschrek and Panzerfaust."

Again I think this backs Steve and Charles.

Okay, I'll give the Bibliography of the book:

Bender, R. J., and Law, R. D., Uniforms, Organization and History of the Afrika Korps (USA:R. J. Bender, 1973)

Kellig, W., Das Deutche Heer 1939-1945 (Bad Neuheim: Verlag Hans-Henning Podsun, 1956)

Lumsden, R., Himmler's Black Order: A History of the SS, 1923-45 (Phoenix Mill: Sutton Publishing, 1997)

Mueller-Hillebrand, B., Das Heer 1933-1945, vols I and II (Frankfurt-am-Main)

Tessin, G., Verbande und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945 (Osnabruck: Biblo Verla, 1977)

Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, in National Archives, American Historical Association Committee for the Study of War Documents, Washington, DC, 1960.

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No smilies were harmed in the making of this post.

[This message has been edited by CEO (edited 06-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by CEO (edited 06-05-2000).]

[MrPeng]

Bravo CEO! on both your erudition and your lack of smilies.

Your post is much more appropriate than the flame I have been composing in my head all day. Thanks to you I can go another day without being banned.

Besides, I just can't seem to get worked up enough over someone's hard-headedness over something that grogs all seem to agree on. the distinction between the LMG and HMG configurations makes sense to me.

I also think that Steve and Charles have bent over backwards for MrMGMann. If someone were to come grunting and snorting at me like that over a 'finished' product and demand to know my sources and get all huffy and irritated and be a big PITA, I would very definitely open up a can of flaming whoop-ass on the swine. Oh yeah, his shoulders would feel the sting of the lash alright. By God, cranky, demanding chrulish behavior like that from my kids get no more than a stern look and a "mind your manners, child!" from me. A grown Human should know better. Then again, maybe this guy is some sort of punk teenager who thinks the world owes him something. Or worse yet, maybe he's a Rotarian! that's got to be it! Man, if there's anything I hate more than a smiley, its a Rotarian, those bastards always goin around doin things and stuff...

Sorry. what was I saying? Oh yeah, I'm not gonna flame the guy Because logic and reason and solid references work best, and CEO and the fine gentlemen at BTS have performed admirably on that account.

Buh bye

Peng

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Peng sez "die a lot now."

My apologies to Rotarians, I have no idea what they do...it just seemed like the way to go at the time. knowwhutahmean?

[This message has been edited by MrPeng (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Dang, and I have that book too Well, not exactly. I bought mine one by one as they came out starting about 5 years ago. Each volume is in a spiral binding and the bunch of them (20 in all, including Soviets and German Allies) take up a CRUD load of shelf space. I think I paid about $25 for each one, and now... I could get at least the Infantry stuff in ONE volume for about 1/4th the price.

Sometimes it sucks to collect stuff like this. Well, at least I only paid $14 for my first East German uniform when just 2 years earlier they were going for $350 and $35 for a Swiss uniform that went for $550 a few months before

Steve

[MG Mannschft]

Steve, Charles, Etc Etc,

Where was this information when I First asked? This is what I've been asking for the whole time and been ridiculed for it untill now finally someone got off their behind and did what I've been doing, citing Books, Pages and Authors. It is dissapointing to know I would have to under go such things for a clear and assuminly honest answer.

I Am Definitely Glad however that is have finnally Been Brought up so I Can Learn the information from the actual books you list. Tommorow will be spent searching the shelves and bookstores for a Acurate account of listing and training of a "Sub-Machine Gun Squad."

Thank you! Finnally.

While this issue is not yet settled, It's well on it's way.

According to Von Mellenthin who wrote "Panzer Battles" In his Chapter on the western front, Nov. 14th hes says "We Left the 462nd V.G.D. In Metz; It numbered about 10,000 combatant troops. They where mostly elderly men, quite unfitting to stand the rigors of modern war; They did not have a single tank and were allotted only one detachment of anti-tank guns and one detachment of AAA."

As far as Von Mellenthin's Credentials at the time of his writting this, he was a adjent to General Balck. Von Mellenthin who Wrote "Panzer Battles" served on all fronts from 1940 to 1945 inwhich he served with distiction in the german army. In his writting in "Panzer battles," he's noted for his mentioning the strenghts and weaknesses of differenet Divisions before, during and after the battles. Also noted for his Detailed fold out maps. He is one of the Best German Scorces for actual battle strenghts and equipment. Because even though on Paper, they might say they are Equipted one way, in actuallity as in this sitiuation preivously mentioned. Their acual fighting strenght is non-exsistant.

Also, the "HMG Kompanie" Issue I think is still at large.

As For as I am concerned. I Still have yet to understand what you are trying to say on how "HMG Teams" Move Slow. And are unable to keep up with Normal Infantry. As far as I Am concered, From the Information in the Book (Again I end up Writing this) "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Buchner. The "HMG" Kompanie was a collection of not Only MG-34s and MG-42s but Grenade Lauchers (Mortars) and the Like. Unlike their Allied counterparts, The Role Itself of the "HMG" Kompanie's MG Teams were Idetical to a normal Infantry Squads machine gun team. Using the Fist of the Machine gun with "More" ammuniton with Plus 2 men to lag around extra Ammuniton. Thus Supporting and Leading Assualt.

And Mr. Ping. You have already flamed me, Dont Bother saying your not going to.

Please Read All of this, not just some of it.

Once again I'll also say that I am trying to help you by listing once again another scorce of German Information, so that you can incorprate it into future Games. Dont get me wrong (Again!) I'm not trying to tear you down, I'm just trying to give you some Info. And Gain Imformation for myself.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

Another Little Side note,

What is a "Veteran" Volksgrenadier Squad?

What a strong Oximoran.

MG

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Where was this information when I First asked?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean "first demanded" complete with insults? Well, I am not at your beck and call to re-research what we did 2 years ago just because you want me too. If you had asked nicely, maybe I might have tried a bit harder to find you more info. But as I said, I have better things to do with my time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As For as I am concerned. I Still have yet to understand what you are trying to say on how "HMG Teams" Move Slow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The role of the HMG Team for the Germans is identical to the US Army. The fact is by 1944 the US Army's structure and tactics were largely based on the German ones. The US had a Heavy Weapons Company for each Battalion with a crudload of .30 cal and 3x.50 cal MGs as well as 81mm mortars and lots of bazookas. The US also had a Heavy Weapons platoon attached to each Company directly. Advantage of manpower and equipment

For the Germans (and US since they were based on the Germans), the HMG was supposed to provide supporting fire for the infantry, not act as infantry. This is why the HMGs are with mortars since they have the same roles and rougly the same movement rates. This again ephasizes that the HMGs in the German army were NOT utlized like they were squads. They were seen as a seperate suppot element, like mortars.

The Germans would position their HMGs some 200-400m to the rear of the MRL, not up in the front with everybody else. During the assault it was brought up to the staging area to provide covering fire while the infantry units advanced. It was NOT supposed to be running along with infantry during the assault even of it could. After the infantry secured their objective the HMGs would move forward along with other support elements, like mortars. This is the same for the US Army (more or less).

Mobile firepower on the assault was provided by the LMGs assigned to each squad. For US units this role was the same, but with the less effective BAR. The Brits too, but with the Bren gun.

Also, please note how much ammo we have an HMG Team carrying. No way can they move as fast as a squad. After reading all that has been said about weight, including stuff from guys that have actually done this for real, I don't understand why you can't grasp the weight issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Dont get me wrong (Again!) I'm not trying to tear you down, I'm just trying to give you some Info. And Gain Imformation for myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is fine and exactly what we want to see here. But if you have an attitude and apparently don't think about what people are writing back, then this can not happen productively. You don't have to agree with us, or anybody else for that matter, but we do expect you to have some respect for us.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What is a "Veteran" Volksgrenadier Squad? What a strong Oximoran. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, depends on what unit you are talking about. Some first rate remains of shattered divisions were converted into Volksgrenadier divisions. There is nothing inherently inferior about this formation from a manpower standpoint compared to Pattern 44 Infantry Divisions, Panzer Divisions, or any other type of front line division receiving new soliders at this point in the war. The Pattern 45 Infantry division was based, in part, on the Volksgrenadier TO&E.

Volkssturm on the other hand...

Steve