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MG Mannschft

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    Portland Oregon, United States Of America
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    WWII Re-enacting and The German Wehrmacht of WWII
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  1. Coffession Time: Actually, I must now Respond to your game playing conscience which has been answering me for the last four or so times, In my Neighborhood when someone namely the ball owner got beat by not being able to play the game as well as the others, he would say "I'm now taking my ball and going home" This is what you guys are doing now. I Have BEEN ernestly throwing out book titles authors and Information from those books which are VERY reputable Including if I must add Steve's Handbook on German Military forces and you guys are answering me with "This must just be a 10 year old or a Collage student" (I just got Promoted)! When In actuallity I am dealing with Facts that you guys just dont want to hear. It's taken me 52 years of my life to understand what Debating is all about (Granted my 17 year old Re-enactor Son is this typing for me). But lets fact it. When the Going gets tough, the Tough keeps pressing the Attack. Maybe one thing that you might learn from this is prepair for the Worst And laugh at the Rest. There is no Point in quoting to you actual facts and then being responded to by name calling when you cant think of an Appropriate answer. I Have been trying to keep within the bounds of imformation both receiving and giving. The Subject matter is The Game, and the information "Exchanged" was made in good faith. With my Own Exprience in Collage, debating with the Best at hand, you guys are looking pretty sad. I Still say as my stand on this game, that it is a good game, it's very playable it's as realistic as any Sit-down game can get. And as Realistic as any game out there. That is my Opinion on the Game. My Aim was to increase your Knowlege about the actual situation at the Time. Sorry that you where not open to accept the Imformation. Maybe in the next Version of this game, more research and of course better graphics will make the next version a winner too. MG
  2. Uh-Oh! In reading Von Mellenthin's Book, you must of Found some Interesting Facts you dont want to share, Quick! Change the Subject! I'm Old enough to use a Computer. You Gamers sure do take thing seriously. As Far as a Quote goes. From the German Infantry Handbook, Here it goes: Page 48 On the Infantry HMG Squad. "After reciving orders, a HMG Platton was ready to fire in about 20minutes." "Before the Begining of a Battle, the Gun Leader took the Machine guns site and a Case of Ammuntion from the Cart, the Gunner 1 took the Machine Gun, Gunner 2 folded the Mantelet, gunners 3 and 4 Carried two Ammuniton Cases each, making a first supply of 1,500 rounds." There, There's your Quote. That Should Settle the Argument on how much ammuniton was taken into combat by a HMG Crew. MG
  3. Blackhorse: This Book Origanally Published under the Title "Das Handbuch Der Deutschen Infantrie 1939-1945" Was translated from the German By Doc. Edward Force, Central Connecticut State University. There are 20 Authors listed in his Bibliography all in German whom he used as scorces for his book. If you want me to list them, I will. If you know German, then you can aquire them. This Book is a Comprihensive accumlation of Facts on the German Army from 1939 to 1945 and contains everything that you would want to know or in your case not want to know about the German Army. I Will only research the Page number and part in this book because of it's Lenghty information, so that you can read it for youself. IE: On page 47, The Machine Gun Kompanie (MGK). Through Page 49 it explains, men, equipment Etc. about the German Machine Gun Kompanie. In Chapter 5, "The Infantry Regiment" It goes into great detail on the equipment Specificly Heavy Infantry weapons and such. Also New Infantry Weapons are Covered in the Appendix such as the P-38 Pistol, and the MP-44 Assualt Rifle, and the MG-42. Instead of my quoting you long Versus go get the book. You'll be Pleased at the Amount of information it has when you read it. The other books, not just one, that I Have been using are Von Mellenthin's "Panzer Battles" and if you dont know who Von Mellenthin is, You dont know the german Army. Another Title that I'll use, is Steve's Own Bible, The Handbook on german Military Forces, Which I Have, and If you would care to Look on Page H-12 Section D Volksgrenadier Division, You will see that Himmler Invented these Grenadier Divisions as a Political Rather then as a Actual Division. To Instill as it goes on, The Esprit De Corps they Concicrated them equal of the SS Divisions. What Hoak. MG
  4. And GermanBoy and MadMatt, PLEASE sick the The SUBJECT matter which is realisum in a game. DONT Get all upset. I'm not. I'm offering Contrustive Critizium, I Suggest you do the Same. If you are going to Prasie the Game, Praise it, If you're going to Critize it, do it Constructivly. Dont Take It personally. MG
  5. Germanboy, In Responce to Rate of Fire, And Burning up Ammunition on a MG-42, Its not like a .30 Cal american Gun Inwhich you need a Screw driver and about 20 minutes to change a Hot Barrel, the Allies just let the gun Cool down, If you are a True German who Has seen or heard of a German MG-42, Then you already know they the Barrel On a MG-42 can Be Changed in Seconds but just Poping the Barrel out by the side. Obviously, You dont know the Gun. MG
  6. Keith The Cyclic rate of Fire on a MG-42 is 1,300 to 1,500 Round per minute. But The Germans never Fired long bursts of Ammunition since Ammunition was VERY Scarce. Steve. How Ever so much you Wish the Germans just had "Bucketloads" of Ammunition. You Are Gravly mistaken. Ammo was Scarce and They kept their bursts of their Machine Guns, to a Minimum. They where told And Disaplined not to fire more then 10 to 20 round Bursts. MG
  7. Keith, If you dont know what you are Talking about, Dont Speak. MG
  8. It Was WILD Back then. Everything goes. Steve: According to the German Infantry Handbook, (Again By Alex Buchner) from the Origanel German, States that there was a machine Gun Squad that advanced infront of the Rifle Squad which covered the Machine Gun. That is totally the Opposite of a US Squad. Which sets up it's Clumbsy .30 Cal (1919) To Cover it's Advancing Infantry. This Held ture through out the War Untill the Regular Army Units, SS And Heer Excluding the Volkgrenadiers could no Longer Mount a effective Attack. Remember the Volksgrendiers where a Strickly a Home defence Force, Their Actions proved it during the Very short Time from Sept. 1944 to April of 1945. Another Thing On Volksgrenadiers, Apart of what you might think they where equiped with, There Training was non-Exsitant Remember these where not formed from regular army Troops. They where Elderly and The young. There was no Time for Training. Also, When It comes to forming new Divisions, Of either Heer or Waffen-SS Units they where formed from Remnants of Heer or Waffen-SS Troops, Not from Volksgrenadier people. Case in Point the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" Was fromed from Personal from the LAH to serve as the Nucleus for the Division as for Training and To fill The NCO and Officer positions. AS far as the Weight Issue in a HMG Team is concerned: The Germans Learned Ealry on that with the Extra two men Plus a Division of Labor including carrying Extra Ammuntion Around their Necks, The Load of ammunition was Distributed evenly throughout the Machine Gun Squad. Even the Rifle squad Which was Apart of it, Carryied Ammuntion for the Machine Gun since they all worked as a Team. The Browing .30 Machine Gun (1919) was Replaced by the M-60 (A MG-42 Clone) because it took the Amercians 15 Years to Figure out how to move a Machine Gun fast and Effectivly. "Actually, depends on what unit you are talking about. Some first rate remains of shattered divisions were converted into Volksgrenadier divisions. There is nothing inherently inferior about this formation from a manpower standpoint compared to Pattern 44 Infantry Divisions, Panzer Divisions, or any other type of front line division receiving new soliders at this point in the war. The Pattern 45 Infantry division was based, in part, on the Volksgrenadier TO&E." In Truth The Volksgrenadiers where formed from Old Men Beyong the Age for combat, and The very young (Under 14) to serve as a last ditch effort to save germany. They would be Considered "4F" by our Standerds, And not of Much Military Value except for Cannon Fodder. (Note: Read "Panzer Battles" By Von Mellenthin to get some Idea of what I are talking about) The Above is in Responce to the Reality of how the german Army fought and their Compasition during WWII. The Next Part is Your Game. One: The Use of Realistic Tactics. In this Responce to "1" I Will Agree that your Tactical Setups are good and I do Agree that your Statment "CM isnt Perfect" But as far as fundamentals flaws go there might be some. Two: Heavy Machine gun Teams. The only way inwhich a HMG was used by the Germans was to Cover a Area while The Troops Re-Organized provide protection inbetween attacks and defences. And Remember a HMG team inly have one Difference in the German Army Between it's Lighter counterparts: Ammunition and two Extra Men. Three: Volksgrenadier SMG Units. Since your Game does not Hinge on the Realistic use of Volksgrenadier Sub-Machine Gun Units, and you have only one scorce of information on them, I'll be glad to overlook this one. In your Answer to RMC about the Use of MP-40's It was "Wild Back then" They had MP-40's Coming out of their Ears and the MP-44's they had WAREHOUSES FULL of them! Except if your are a Gun Collector, Which I am. Just Try to Find one that Hasnt been Cut, that's been sitting in a Warehouse for 55 Years Just waiting to be Bought by a Collector. You Will Be lucky to Find a Extremly used MP-44, Which by the Way are RARE for about $7,000. Lee: As Far as your Comment on Instinctively knowing that the Germans Had Large Units Armed with Vase Quantities of MP-40s, "It was WILD Back Then." All of the Big Factories that were'nt bombed by the Allies where Producing them by the Millions. Oh, And By the way, Just Try to Find one to By these days, They must still have them locked in their Warehouses. MG
  9. Another Little Side note, What is a "Veteran" Volksgrenadier Squad? What a strong Oximoran. MG
  10. Steve, Charles, Etc Etc, Where was this information when I First asked? This is what I've been asking for the whole time and been ridiculed for it untill now finally someone got off their behind and did what I've been doing, citing Books, Pages and Authors. It is dissapointing to know I would have to under go such things for a clear and assuminly honest answer. I Am Definitely Glad however that is have finnally Been Brought up so I Can Learn the information from the actual books you list. Tommorow will be spent searching the shelves and bookstores for a Acurate account of listing and training of a "Sub-Machine Gun Squad." Thank you! Finnally. While this issue is not yet settled, It's well on it's way. According to Von Mellenthin who wrote "Panzer Battles" In his Chapter on the western front, Nov. 14th hes says "We Left the 462nd V.G.D. In Metz; It numbered about 10,000 combatant troops. They where mostly elderly men, quite unfitting to stand the rigors of modern war; They did not have a single tank and were allotted only one detachment of anti-tank guns and one detachment of AAA." As far as Von Mellenthin's Credentials at the time of his writting this, he was a adjent to General Balck. Von Mellenthin who Wrote "Panzer Battles" served on all fronts from 1940 to 1945 inwhich he served with distiction in the german army. In his writting in "Panzer battles," he's noted for his mentioning the strenghts and weaknesses of differenet Divisions before, during and after the battles. Also noted for his Detailed fold out maps. He is one of the Best German Scorces for actual battle strenghts and equipment. Because even though on Paper, they might say they are Equipted one way, in actuallity as in this sitiuation preivously mentioned. Their acual fighting strenght is non-exsistant. Also, the "HMG Kompanie" Issue I think is still at large. As For as I am concerned. I Still have yet to understand what you are trying to say on how "HMG Teams" Move Slow. And are unable to keep up with Normal Infantry. As far as I Am concered, From the Information in the Book (Again I end up Writing this) "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Buchner. The "HMG" Kompanie was a collection of not Only MG-34s and MG-42s but Grenade Lauchers (Mortars) and the Like. Unlike their Allied counterparts, The Role Itself of the "HMG" Kompanie's MG Teams were Idetical to a normal Infantry Squads machine gun team. Using the Fist of the Machine gun with "More" ammuniton with Plus 2 men to lag around extra Ammuniton. Thus Supporting and Leading Assualt. And Mr. Ping. You have already flamed me, Dont Bother saying your not going to. Please Read All of this, not just some of it. Once again I'll also say that I am trying to help you by listing once again another scorce of German Information, so that you can incorprate it into future Games. Dont get me wrong (Again!) I'm not trying to tear you down, I'm just trying to give you some Info. And Gain Imformation for myself. MG
  11. Steve, Once again, I Will support my view of active german troops during WWII by saying we are using scorces that are from the Origanal german And the Knowelege the Allies had was not avable to them at the time The TM was Written, It was NOT a Post War Book. Since the war was still going on, If you think that the german POW's where open to disscuss german Tacitics on their enemy at that time, you might as well call every german POW a Traitor, They would not Give out that Imformation. So the Allies in Turn conjected most of the Imformation by Battling with the german Forces at that time. You must remember that they where confronting a german force of inferior quality compared to their advancing army from 1940 to the Battle of Kursk. Remember as an actual battle account during the battle of the buldge when the germans decided to amass and attack the allied army, the Allies comment was "When they decide to attack, you just get out of their way." With $15,000 of books, Cant you quote on of them other then your Precious TM? Give me some Information such as Title and Author. You dont even have to look in the book. If you are done researching. Dont make another Game. I am after Real Information, Please Help me. MG
  12. TSS: As far as Quoting Statitics of the Numbers lost, and the ratios bettween germans and russians the Numbers of actual Combatents between them was Determened by the total number of actual combat troops on the line in a area on the german side compared to the actual number of combatents on the line on the Russian side. If you have 1 German for every 15 russians falling in combat. That Ratio Is determend not by the total Number killed on both sides but the ratio bettwen how many where facing how many others. In the case of Combat inbetween the russians and the germans during wwii, the germans lost 1 for every 15 that where killed in action. The Russians never failed to use overwheling numbers to die beacuse they could afford it. MG
  13. Steve, You did not infact give me a Reliable Reffernce to Training MP-40 armed squad and not the Field Modifican that Blackhorse Described. A German reffence with Title and Author, Not The American "Handbook" that we also have, and Not the 2 Years ago thing where you thought you saw it some where. I Am interested in gathering imformation from Origanal scorces, in this case Origanal German, contempary that is. I Am not interested in somebodies idea of what Happened. If you can name me Titles and Authors I will find those Scorces and verify the contents. Otherwise, You are talking through your hat. That means you have no valid factual imformation from the Time. Which means that if you are going to repesent as close as you can to a actual fighting unit, you should know and have your facts strait, and be able to back up your words. I have by naming just one title and I have more Titles that back up our words. IE: "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Buchner. "Uniforms, Organization, and History of the Waffen-SS" Vol. 1 to 5 James Bender Publishing "Grenaiders" Kurt Meyer "German Combat Equipments 1939-45" Gordon Rottman "Der Rekruit" German WWII Maunal "My Lotality is my Honor" Gordon Williamson Etc..Etc...Etc. I Am looking for acurate imformation. I'm not out to tear your game apart I'm trying to give you more accurate imformation so you can make the game better. So I'm offering constructive critisium and more scorces of imformation. I Realize that you and your Crew have put alot of work into this game. So Please if you have other scorces of contemporay information, Please Tell me about them by Title and Author. MG
  14. Black Horse. In repsonce to your Combat action Book, That takes actual Accounts of german soldiers fighting the the eastern front. I would have to say that this was not a reuglar company of german machine gunners, as it sounds there was either alot of captured russian sub-machine guns which there where ambundant quantanties or this company was a mix of several other comapaies inwhich they had an ambunadance of sub-machine gunners. We can Find No TRAINING Manual or acutal german refference to a German Trained Sub-Machine gun Squad. In your analysis, the refferneces are totally out of the Norm For an a assualt made by a Machine Gun and Rifle Squad. It dosent speicfy the type of sub machine gun they used. Which makes me belive that they where not standard issue. By the account that you give, it is obvious that the german forces were extremly flexable taking into your account that by your won information given. But that dosent rule out the normal proceduese that where followed out that time. Read "The German Infantry Handbook" (Alex Buchner) it will make you aware of standerd operating proceduere.
  15. Steve, First of all, We replied to the Tripod Question by reffering to the Book, "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Bunchner (Chater 3 Battle Troops, "The rifle Squad." Pages 23 to 24.) Try to find in your local Libray of books. As it is translated proffessionaly from Origanal German. If you wish you have more scorces from the origanal german documents with titles and author I would be glade to furnish those to you. The List is Long. You have no Idea, they are the Exactly the opposite of american tactics. The germans used the maching gun to advance with while the riflemen covered them, that is the opposite of what the allies did during the same Time period. And the statisics prove that when fighting the russians, for every german that died, 15 russians fell. Would you call that successful german tactics? Remember it takes the US army a long time to figure something out, If you've ever been in. So What you're Saying is instead of using origanal German training manuals and Origanal German Statistics on how they fought, you're reffering to a American Misguided Training Manual from the United States Army (That training mauael is so Misguided I am sorry you used that poorly written book) which so full of holes on how the german army fought during WWII espescially their squad level tactics inwhich the american army didnt realise the full vaule of untill the 1960's when they took a MG-42 and a FG-42 and made and M-60. And that is your Pace in which the United States army is in reconizing how vaulable the german tactical system was setup, it took them 15 years to figure it out. In other words, your basicing your facts on faulty U.S. documents issued instead of origanal german documents issued during the actual time, Read More Origanal german Documents. Then you'll begin to understand. Give me some Speciffic titles and authors so I can verify what you are saying, Because so far I have you on actual documentation. Please Explain Further. And How about those Photos and Documentation on those Non-exisitant Sub-machinegun MP-40 Squads. MG
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