Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[Juju]

Wow!

You guys impress me time and time again!

Anyone for tennis?

[MG Mannschft]

Blackhorse:

This Book Origanally Published under the Title "Das Handbuch Der Deutschen Infantrie 1939-1945" Was translated from the German By Doc. Edward Force, Central Connecticut State University. There are 20 Authors listed in his Bibliography all in German whom he used as scorces for his book. If you want me to list them, I will. If you know German, then you can aquire them. This Book is a Comprihensive accumlation of Facts on the German Army from 1939 to 1945 and contains everything that you would want to know or in your case not want to know about the German Army. I Will only research the Page number and part in this book because of it's Lenghty information, so that you can read it for youself. IE: On page 47, The Machine Gun Kompanie (MGK). Through Page 49 it explains, men, equipment Etc. about the German Machine Gun Kompanie. In Chapter 5, "The Infantry Regiment" It goes into great detail on the equipment Specificly Heavy Infantry weapons and such. Also New Infantry Weapons are Covered in the Appendix such as the P-38 Pistol, and the MP-44 Assualt Rifle, and the MG-42. Instead of my quoting you long Versus go get the book. You'll be Pleased at the Amount of information it has when you read it. The other books, not just one, that I Have been using are Von Mellenthin's "Panzer Battles" and if you dont know who Von Mellenthin is, You dont know the german Army. Another Title that I'll use, is Steve's Own Bible, The Handbook on german Military Forces, Which I Have, and If you would care to Look on Page H-12 Section D Volksgrenadier Division, You will see that Himmler Invented these Grenadier Divisions as a Political Rather then as a Actual Division. To Instill as it goes on, The Esprit De Corps they Concicrated them equal of the SS Divisions. What Hoak.

MG

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CEO:

Uhhh. Check back a few posts. The info you posted, I already let 'im have it with it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotcha CEO. I didn't realize at the time that your book was Nafziger. He (Nafziger) pretty much does TO&E research for a living.

So, I just reinforced what you had already stated

[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackhorse:

Gotcha CEO. I didn't realize at the time that your book was Nafziger. He (Nafziger) pretty much does TO&E research for a living.

So, I just reinforced what you had already stated (Smilie removed for MrPeng)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats okay. I should have posted the Author also. Hey, it was midnight, and I had to go to work in the morning.

MG, please provide a page no. and then quote the text of the book you speak so much of. Try to PROVIDE evidence that your position is right, instead of "thumping" your "bible".

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No smilies were harmed in the making of this post.

[This message has been edited by CEO (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

Instead of my quoting you long Versus go get the book. The other books, not just one, that I Have been using are Von Mellenthin's "Panzer Battles" and if you dont know who Von Mellenthin is, You dont know the german Army. MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG,

How hard can it be to read and quote just a few sentences dealing with tactical employment of HMGs and LMGs? I don't want all pages, just a relevant few lines, much like the ones I gave you from several reliable sources.

The same goes for TO&E.

As for Von Mellenthin's book, I have the fourth Edition.

Here's an interesting quote,

In the Crisis in the West section, pg 319 in my book:

"On 24 September two regiments of the 559th Volks Grenadier Division suported by the 106th panzer brigade, put in an attack west of Chateau-Salins."

The map on my page 315 entitled "Army Group G, 15 September 1944"

Shows the following Divisions on the Front Line.

19 (VGD) Volksgrenadier Division

559th VGD

462 VGD

17 SS

3 PGD

553 VGD

15 PGD

16 INF DIV

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

There are 20 Authors listed in his Bibliography all in German whom he used as scorces for his book. If you want me to list them, I will. If you know German, then you can aquire them.

contains everything that you would want to know or in your case not want to know about the German Army. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh heh, a coupla things in regards to this MG.

First of all, I'm fluent in German so fire away.

Second, both my uncles fought in the Wermacht in WWII. They have seen the elephant.

Third, When you give me the bibliography, go ahead and give me the publishing date as well.

Fourth, who is feeding you this crap?

[MG Mannschft]

Uh-Oh! In reading Von Mellenthin's Book, you must of Found some Interesting Facts you dont want to share, Quick! Change the Subject!

I'm Old enough to use a Computer.

You Gamers sure do take thing seriously.

As Far as a Quote goes. From the German Infantry Handbook, Here it goes:

Page 48 On the Infantry HMG Squad. "After reciving orders, a HMG Platton was ready to fire in about 20minutes."

"Before the Begining of a Battle, the Gun Leader took the Machine guns site and a Case of Ammuntion from the Cart, the Gunner 1 took the Machine Gun, Gunner 2 folded the Mantelet, gunners 3 and 4 Carried two Ammuniton Cases each, making a first supply of 1,500 rounds."

There, There's your Quote.

That Should Settle the Argument on how much ammuniton was taken into combat by a HMG Crew.

MG

[billcarey]

This is fun(ny) to watch!

The actual truth of the matter is that the MG-42 HMG squad was equipped with the Gehensiemachschnellüberflydeathspeedjetpack Mark IIIA which allowed speeds easily twice that of any other infantry division in the war.

I have a clear and reliable source which, while written in Swahili must be purchased immediately by everyone who has ever heard of WWII:

Willhelm Carius, "Handbook of Knowledge I Pulled out My Butt", 1944.

It is a really great resource!

- Bill

[Guest Mirage2k]

Ok, let me first say that I'm speaking from absolutely NO practical or theoretical experience with WWII weapons.

BUT...

Two cases sounds like quite a lot to me...and considering that the whole unit has to stay together, not just the guy holding the HMG, it seems like those two guys with the two boxes each could hold up the squad...anybody want to comment/enlighten? Help/criticism welcomed!!!!!

-Andrew

[Lorak]

MG,

that sounds resonable to me. " a first supply of 1500 rounds." Sounds to me they were setting up in a static position and could retrieve more rounds from the cart as needed. It doesn't sound like they took 1500 rounds and ran to the front.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billcarey:

This is fun(ny) to watch!

Willhelm Carius, "Handbook of Knowledge I Pulled out My Butt", 1944.

It is a really great resource!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! I get the very distinct and unequivocal feeling we're arguing with a 10 year old. Time to pull pitch and climb to a higher altitude in this thread.

C-ya!

[Guest Big Time Software]

MG, you might be old enough to use a computer, but not old enough to know when you are just digging your own grave. Your quotes don't support what you are saying, when you even bother to provide "evidence". You obviously haven't a clue what a Volksgrenadier division was (still). You claim you are here to learn, but yet you keep telling everybody that they are wrong and not listening to a word anybody is saying. This is not the way to learn, which hopefully someone at your college is trying to get through your eveidently thick skull.

BTW, what you quoted there describes deploying a HMG prior to combat. Nobody moves a cart up during combat dude. Plus also notice the key word in "first supply of 1,500 rounds". The word is "First", which means there was at least a "Second". I found a source when we originally did the research, from Wehrmacht sources, that showed the ammo allocations for certain formations. A Squad was to have 1,600 rounds available and a HMG 5,100. Some was to be held in reserve by the Platoon HQ along with other "baggage" for the platoon.

Argh... I said I wouldn't get sucked in again, but ignorant ego maniacs really get me going...

Steve

[Guest Mirage2k]

I am respectfully urging BTS to close up this thread.

1. It isn't going anywhere. The main instigator (MG) is clearly not listening to anyone, and doesn't seem interested in enlightening the rest of us with his vast array of knowledge...

2. The thread's basis was nit-picky anway. With a finished product, we shouldn't have to listen to concerns that should be solved by late-Beta.

3. The whole thing is getting tiring, and, frankly, kind of boring.

At least, those are my opinions. I'm going to put this up in a separate thread, just in case a few of us don't want to wade down in this swamp again...

-Andrew

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Argh... I said I wouldn't get sucked in again, but ignorant ego maniacs really get me going...

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve, feeling the lure of the dark side?!

I wonder how much this thread will have grown by tomorrow morning when I get up.

MG, if your arguments are any indication of the quality of re-enactment going on in your group, it must be very poorly indeed. If your more adult mates could see what you are doing here, they would hang their heads in shame.

This is getting so painful and embarassing to watch that one person suggested to me that MG Mannshaft is actually a hoax himself, by someone wanting to have fun with the board.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest Madmatt]

God, reading this thread reminds me of the beach scene in SPR where the GI's have got a gaggle of fleeing Germans holed up in a trench and just start pouring fire into them until Sgt. Horvac yells at them to 'Cease Fire Cease Fire!'...

I am actually starting to feel sorry for the tike! Let him retreat outa this slaughter with some dignity and maybe he will come away with some small modicum of gained intelligence and respect..Then again perhaps not...

Madmatt

"You can have a warm glass of Shut The Hell Up!"

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[MG Mannschft]

Coffession Time:

Actually, I must now Respond to your game playing conscience which has been answering me for the last four or so times, In my Neighborhood when someone namely the ball owner got beat by not being able to play the game as well as the others, he would say "I'm now taking my ball and going home" This is what you guys are doing now. I Have BEEN ernestly throwing out book titles authors and Information from those books which are VERY reputable Including if I must add Steve's Handbook on German Military forces and you guys are answering me with "This must just be a 10 year old or a Collage student" (I just got Promoted)! When In actuallity I am dealing with Facts that you guys just dont want to hear. It's taken me 52 years of my life to understand what Debating is all about (Granted my 17 year old Re-enactor Son is this typing for me). But lets fact it. When the Going gets tough, the Tough keeps pressing the Attack. Maybe one thing that you might learn from this is prepair for the Worst And laugh at the Rest. There is no Point in quoting to you actual facts and then being responded to by name calling when you cant think of an Appropriate answer. I Have been trying to keep within the bounds of imformation both receiving and giving. The Subject matter is The Game, and the information "Exchanged" was made in good faith. With my Own Exprience in Collage, debating with the Best at hand, you guys are looking pretty sad. I Still say as my stand on this game, that it is a good game, it's very playable it's as realistic as any Sit-down game can get. And as Realistic as any game out there. That is my Opinion on the Game. My Aim was to increase your Knowlege about the actual situation at the Time. Sorry that you where not open to accept the Imformation. Maybe in the next Version of this game, more research and of course better graphics will make the next version a winner too.

MG

[Guest Big Time Software]

You don't get it. Your arguments are confused, muddled, and non sensical. You quote stuff that does NOT support your position and then go off on tangents with no sources backing you up at all. Any moron can post bibliographical information, so I don't understand why you find this to be so important. I have almost all the books you keep mentioning, but you aren't saying WHY you are mentioning them.

In short, your debating skills are terrible, and I would also say your research skills are not good at all. I got my degree in History and I can tell you that you would get a D+ if you tried to present a term paper like this. You can try and make yourself out to be the victim here, but that is not the case. You are making bad case for whatever it is you feel you have to prove. You aren't listening to anybody here so far as any of us can tell. So that is why nobody feels that there is ANY value in continuing this discussion.

I am tempted to lock this up, if only to save you from further humilitating yourself in front of people who have been trying very hard to engage you in rational debate. The fact that all of us have given up should tell you something about your style of presentation and skill at arguning your case. Hey, who knows... maybe you are right about something, but your presentation is not convincing in the least (opposite in fact).

Steve

P.S. Our track record for putting in corrections and new information from people on this BBS is unquestionable. We spent about a week redesigning the artillery system based on feedback from people on this forum. The fact that we aren't acting on your suggestion is because it is not correct, or at least you have not made a case that stands up to the facts.

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Lorak]

MG,

I understand what your saying. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. As a person that has carried a .50 I can assure you that there is no way in hell that I could run and keep up with riflemen. Well, clarification. Yes you can run with it. But for short distances and then you would be puffing. Same reason we passed it around on marches. What I think you confusing is the movement rates in CM.

crawl-we know that one

sneack- slow walk looking for enemy.

Move- normal infantry pace, quick march ect..

Run- flat out running, huffing and puffing.

A HMG can can do all of the following except for run. To me that is resonable. They can keep up with the infantry in everyway but running. Even a rifle squad will get real tired if you run them more than a turn or so.

Maybe you should view it as a HMG or mortar squad when "running" (moving as fast as they can) can only move at a normal squads pace. Look at the orders as speeds not actual animations.

Hope that made sense.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[DanE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

God, reading this thread reminds me of the beach scene in SPR where the GI's have got a gaggle of fleeing Germans holed up in a trench and just start pouring fire into them until Sgt. Horvac yells at them to 'Cease Fire Cease Fire!'...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You HAVE got to be kidding me. Right movie, wrong scene.

This is the scene where Hanks blindfolds the captured german and sends him to the rear. While the other guys are begging to... Well, you know the scene.

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Dan

[Guest Big Time Software]

This quote is such a gem that I thought it deserved its own response:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is no Point in quoting to you actual facts and then being responded to by name calling when you cant think of an Appropriate answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a joke, right? I and others have responded, using facts and common sense, to each and every RELEVANT "fact" you have presented. See my response to your cart "fact" that you think was the be-all-end-all to this whole debate. The truth is that you post about 1 quote and about 3 points of personal conjecture that are not supported by anything. You have also made obvious mistakes, like the makeup of a Volksgrenadier division and its origins. Then when people point out the problems you just post more irrlevant stuff and then sit there and say "there, I have proved you all wrong".

You might be 52, but you have a LOT to learn about debating.

Also note that it was you who started the insults with your very first post and have kept it up in nearly every post thereafter. So don't cry to anybody if you can't take what you yourself started...

Steve

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

So, MG. where Is your OOB

for German volksgrenadier Divisions, That differs From what Has been Posted here?

that means order of battle.

(An order of battle listed the force composition of an army unit. An army is those guys who shoot those gun things.)

you Could settle That issue Immediately, if You had a Legitimate source. please Provide this, So that a Logical discussion Can continue.

if You stick To one issyou and Reesolv It qwikly and moov on too a noo won.

[Guest TURBO]

Hey guys maybe we are losing somthing in the translation between MG and his kid doing the typing.

[Darren J Pierson]

Unfortunately, this whole thread is a shining example of how sometimes someone has a good question or comment to make, but very poor word choices destroy any possible value the comment had. Sure, the poster might be eventually proven wrong, but an honest, healthy debate is always useful.

I also tried, when this thread started, to keep in mind that language and culture differences could be adding to the fire. I still think that some cultural clashes have taken place, but we are now at the name calling stage.

Gentlemen, let's all just step back and relax. Steve and Charles are making a great contribution to the gaming industry here and let's support them with our dollars and ignore useless and mean-spirited attacks.

Besides, I can't wait to get my hands on some Canadian troops and start slaughtering German HMGs.

And I hope and pray that my name that was on the list made it into the game!!!

Darren

[Guest MantaRay]

I agree 100% with MG now. All his comments have made sense so far, and 35 people are wrong including the designers of CM. I dont know why you are picking on this obvious Einstein and I am going to find all of your IP's and come to each of your doors('Cept Peng...he scares me.) and kick your asses and make you recite and memorize this whole thread. You are all dumb and need to stop picking on MG...can you tell he is my hero???

BTW. I hope you don't invade America with the re-enactment group, but if you do...please be the one leading the charge with the MG. I am the one 900m away that will get to put one in your head, and I want to know it is you when I do it. Would I get a free copy of CM for that Steve and Charles??? Hehe, just kidding I have pre-ordered...and please take my money soon as my wife bought it for me and I am afraid she is going to go shopping and max out the card when she takes her trip this weekend.

Ray

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

MantaRays 5 Pages

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[Formerly Babra]

Curious now. How come a Texan wants to play Canadians? Seriously, is it the equipment or what?

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When I die I want to go peacefully, like my grandfather, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car