Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[Nigel Wulf]

Greetings

I have been following the posts on this message board for sometime. However I could no longer remain a silent reader and registered today if to only to speak out on MG Mannschft comments.

I think it is quite apparent that MG Mannschft is never wrong. His dedicated research of the German combat infantry tactics, and historical reenactments has deemed him the foremost authority on the subject. Obviously this is why he is so astonished by the AI thrashing his superior German forces. I am also amazed that a man with such experience and daunting courage could be thwarted by the mere AI created by BIG TIME SOFTWARE! Are you people kidding me! How more obvious can it be. There must be some sort of design flaw that has crippled

MG Mannschft's ability to properly lead his men in combat.

Now back to reality.....

I can overlook your whining demands, and poor gamesmanship. Any wargamer with any amount of experience has had to contend with this kind of utter nonsense before. But what really steams me has been your utter lack of respect for the real men who sacrificed their lives in this conflict. To suggest that historical reenactments and text book research can provide you with what it was like to brave these very real dangers in real life is ludicrous. No game, book, movie, or historical reenactment will ever put you in the boots of the men who had to live it. Frankly you come across as a cross between Frank Burns from M*A*S*H* and a green West Point officer on the verge of getting his platoon wiped out after ignoring the advice of his combat veterans in the field.

In conclusion any points in your favor in this argument have been diminished by your stormtrooper tactics when dealing with the rest of the group.

Nice to meet the rest of you

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nigel Wulf:

I think it is quite apparent that MG Mannschft is never wrong. His dedicated research of the German combat infantry tactics, and historical reenactments has deemed him the foremost authority on the subject. Obviously this is why he is so astonished by the AI thrashing his superior German forces. I am also amazed that a man with such experience and daunting courage could be thwarted by the mere AI created by BIG TIME SOFTWARE! Are you people kidding me! How more obvious can it be. There must be some sort of design flaw that has crippled

MG Mannschft's ability to properly lead his men in combat.

Now back to reality.....

I can overlook your whining demands, and poor gamesmanship. Any wargamer with any amount of experience has had to contend with this kind of utter nonsense before. But what really steams me has been your utter lack of respect for the real men who sacrificed their lives in this conflict. To suggest that historical reenactments and text book research can provide you with what it was like to brave these very real dangers in real life is ludicrous. No game, book, movie, or historical reenactment will ever put you in the boots of the men who had to live it. Frankly you come across as a cross between Frank Burns from M*A*S*H* and a green West Point officer on the verge of getting his platoon wiped out after ignoring the advice of his combat veterans in the field.

In conclusion any points in your favor in this argument have been diminished by your stormtrooper tactics when dealing with the rest of the group.

Nice to meet the rest of you

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome Nigel, and I could not have said that better myself.

TeAch, I am a non-native speaker of English, French and Japanese. That does not make it okay for me to go around and insult people. I personally think that as a non-native speaker in any language, it is my responsibility to take sufficient care of my usage of said language not to cause offense. If I do, despite my efforts, I would apologise. But maybe that's just funny old me...

MG Mannschaft, if I went to my grand-dad (German veteran of Poland, Holland, France and Russia, severely wounded in 1944) and told him about your reenactments and how you think they put you in some sort of bond to him and his comrades he would probably think you ought to have your head examined. If I then told him that you believe that makes you some kind of expert on combat, he would probably demand it.

Go and get some manners.

------------------

Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[RMC]

I think part of this "debate" may be focusing on semantics or perhaps an error in translation. If I think of a SMG squad, I think of a bunch of guys with MP40s. I don't have all the fancy sources that would explain this in detail and at first blush I would doubt that the Germans would field such a squad. Then I remember something from English's "On Infantry" about the Volksgrenadier squads being redesigned to simplify tactics by giving every man an automatic weapon (and taking away the MG42). But IIRC the intent wasn't to equip them with MP-40s. They were supposed to have MP-44 Assault Rifles. MP = Maschinenpistole = Submachinegun. The STG 44 kept the MP name for quite a while to deceive Hitler. So perhaps the original researcher/MI guy sees MP thinks submachinegun and writes it up as such. Later folks see his research and make the connection that the SMG squad was just that. I have no idea how many of these squads were ever outfitted this way or how many received a mix of MP44 and MP40. Thoughts?

[tss]

MG Mannschft wrote:

That Ratio Is determend not by the total Number killed on both sides but the ratio bettwen how many where facing how many others.

To tell the truth, I cannot understand your argument. I try to express my point more clearly so that you can see whether we are talking on the same subject at all.

In the East Front Germans lost about 2.6 million KIA and 2.5 million POWs, so their total irrecoverable losses were a little over 5 million. Right now I don't have available stats that would show how many of the POWs were captured during the final month of the war. Let's suppose that half of them were. Then, German total losses were about 3.85 million during the war.

At the same time, Soviets lost 6.2 million KIA and 4.5 million POWs, out of which 2.7 million died in captivity, for the total of 8.9 million killed soldiers. These figures give a total casualty ratio of 2.3:1.

As for the relative sizes of the forces, the average monthly average (nice term) of the Red Army size was 5.8 million men. This varied from 2.8 million at the end of '41 to 6.8 million in late '44. At the beginning of the war there was 4.2 million Soviets in army. I don't have the German stats available right now but they had approximately 3.5 million soldiers in East front, so the Soviets had a superiority of 3:2 for most of the war and 2:1 from late '44 on.

Given these figures, it is not possible that Germans had consistently 15:1 kill ratio. There were certainly many battles where Germans killed or captured hundreds of Soviets while losing only few of their numbers, maybe even battles with ratios up to 500:1. However, there were also battles where Soviets racked similar odds. For example, at Salla 1941 Soviets threw back the SS-Division Nord when it tried to attack the fortified hill. Soviet losses are not known, but they couldn't be over 20-30 men. German losses numbered in hundreds.

- Tommi

[dalem]

MG-

It's none of my business to ask you why you insist on being such a poo-head with respect to this topic. Maybe you are only seven years old. Maybe you were raised in the wilderness by a pack of wild a-hole WWII re-enactors and have never had a good example of proper manners. Maybe you are actually a normal person and simply find it entertaining to insult people, play stupid, and read the reactions.

On the other hand, I can't ignore the fact that it's quite possible that you are simply not all that intelligent a person. You may, and I stress may, simply be unable to understand simple answers to your questions.

It also occurs to me while I'm typing this that I may have missed the mark completely, and you may in fact be some sort of superintelligent megahuman whose high-speed mental processes are so geared to curing cancer, developing a faster-than-light space drive, and programming your own 3-dimensional tactical computer simulation, that the simple answers to your questions that have appeared, and the simple pleas for common courtesy, merely appear as blurry text to your lofty gaze.

Perhaps I'll never know.

But as a simple exercise, let's recap what's happened so far. You posted a message that, when one strains all the extra "stuff" out, appeared to be asking two simple questions about the game Combat Mission:

1) "Why can't my HMG teams run as fast as my rifle squads?"

2) "What is the justification for including all-submachinegun-armed squads?"

The answers you got, to paraphrase, appeared to boil down to:

1) "Because the average weight of the junk each HMG team member is carrying was much higher than the average weight of the junk a regular rifleman carried, and the HMG usage doctrine didn't dictate that they would be sprinting around the landscape anyway."

2) "Because the game designers have researched sufficient materials to justify their inclusion."

So. If you believe that increasing the weight one is carrying decreases the maximum sustained pace at which one run, you can probably consider yourself answered for this one.

If you believe that people who design a detailed game know how to do basic research on their topic and will also respond quite reasonably to reasonable requests from their customers or potential customers, then you can probably consider yourself answered for the second one as well.

If, on the other hand, you do not believe either of those things, well, I must admit to being very perplexed. Perhaps at that point you might consider serving yourself a big bowl of "shut the heck up".

-dale

(I do consider myself a native English speaker. If you are not, perhaps you could find someone who is and have them read this message to you.)

[aka_tom_w]

Let the forest not echo without me....

WOW

All I can say is wow....

This is too much, I must heap the highest Praise on Steve and Charles for their incedible patience with MG. They have shown tolerance beyond what I would consider humanly possible when dealing with individual such as MG.

ok now I'm going to RANT!

The GAME is GREAT! the new members come here and say things like "This is exactly like the kind of game I've always dreamed of!" and things like that.

Yes I too have nit-picked and complained about a few "features" and ommisions here and there, but the game is being shipped and released and as we speak and there will be a PATCH once the game is shipping. I ASK you this, have you ever been able to download the v1.01 Patch for ANY other game before the game was actually in your hands?? NO!!! I thought not. These guys are busting their asses to do what is humanly possible to make this the best damn game ever and then guys like you, MG, voice your opinion and demand references and facts and a bibliography??? ITs a Damn Game for crying out loud not a Doctoral Dissertation on German Infantry tactics in the ETO in WW II!!!

AND the Game WORKS!! Does it Crash, NEVER on my Mac, is it Stable YES! does it have a few "undocumented features" that need to be cleared up?? most definatly, but thats what the v1.01 patch is for and it will be downloadable the day the first shipped gold CD arrives at that First Lucky players DOOR!

NOW go off and do your own research and write your own Docteral Disseration, and leave this delightful game and Steve and Charles alone to enjoy the fruits of their labours!!!!

(And the HUGE sales figures!)

rant off

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-05-2000).]

[tss]

I just have to write this...

ITs a Damn Game for crying out loud not Doctor Dessertation on German Infantry tactics

Would that be a medically trained cupcake, or what?

No malice intended,

- Tommi

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

I just have to write this...

ITs a Damn Game for crying out loud not Doctor Dessertation on German Infantry tactics

Would that be a medically trained cupcake, or what?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my pecan pie has been known to strengthen the weak, heal the lame, cause the blind to see once more, and bring forth milk from maidens' breasts.

Mmm, pie. I think I'll go have a slice right now...

------------------

Ethan

-----------

Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

PS -- It always depresses me to see foreigners with a better command of my native tongue than products of our own "education" system. Perhaps MG Mannschaft should spend more time behind McGuffey's Reader and less behind an MG42 (with or without Lafette Tripod Mount)

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 06-05-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK guys, I think the point about MG's behavior has been made well enough. I appreciate the fact that people have even de-lurked (hello Nigel ) to sound off in this thread, but now it is time to take a step back and either stick to the three main points of this thread, or to just let it die. The three points, and their current status, is as follows:

1. The use of realistic tactics - one of the things that people have been coming out of the woodwork to praise us on is that Combat Mission is perhaps the FIRST tactical wargame that allows such realism to play out so well and so easily, with a stronger feeling of "being there" than any other wargame ever. If anybody wishes to challenge this, they had better do their homework REALLY well before opening their mouths since we have military personnel from Privates up to full bird Colonels on our side, not to mention lots of long time wargamers. CM isn't perfect, but it is also lacking any fundamental flaws in this department that aren't related to the human knowing all about his own troops (which is unavoidable)

2. HMG42 Teams - The German Army has these units specifically designated, equipped, trained, and organized to provide covering fire, on the attack or defense, from a well situatuated position. They were not storm troops. As far as movement rates are concerned, they move slowly because in order to do their jobs they need a LOT of ammo. Such ammo loads are both bulky and heavy. Since their role is not to go charging the enemy as if they were a small infantry squad, the slightly reduced movement rate is not a problem so long as you use them REALISTICALLY as the Germans intended them to be used.

3. Volksgrenadier SMG units - We have only one definative source that lays out the TO&E for SMG units. It is very specific and is not likely to be wrong. The Handbook is something we do not like to rely upon as a sole source (sole sources in general aren't good), but it has never been shown to be incorrect about TO&E to this degree. Therefore, it is more than reasonable to expect that it is correct. Some of the stuff others have presented seem to back up the Handbook. However, if anybody can show us a legitimate TO&E for a VG company that is different, we would be more than interested in making changes. But until the Handbook is PROVED to be incorrect, then it stands. Since it would be easy to disprove it if it is indeed incorrect (i.e. we are not asking to "prove a negative"), this is not an unreasonable position for us to take.

OK, I think that about covers it

As for RMC's question about the use of MP40s... the MP44 was just starting to come into full production around the time the VG units were forming. At this point in the war elite units were more likely to get the first batches, which in this case was mostly Waffen SS, Falschrimjägers, and panzer divisions. There wer *never* enough MP44s (Sturmgewehrs) to go around, so such large depands for these weapons was impractical at the time. Therefore, the MP40 was used instead. It wasn't nearly as good, but it was better than Kar98ks for firepower and training reasons I mentioned earlier.

The Pattern 45 Infantry Division specifically called for MP44s. But, and this is interesting, in conjunction with SMGs, LMGs, and Rifles. The information I have on this pattern is sketchy because very few actually saw action before the war eneded. One source I remember stated that they still didn't have the MP44s needed to fill out their TO&E. Oddly enough, warehouses were filled with them but Germany's distribution system had utterly collapsed, so they sat there unused (and "sit" there to this day in LARGE numbers BTW).

My personal opinion is that they reverted to a more diverse mixture of small arms because they found the SMG units brittle when faced with a combined arms enemy. I had this theory before, and I see that CM at least hints that this might be true. If the enemy keeps its distance, the SMG platoons are basically sitting ducks. The "heavy" platoon just isn't enough to counter this. So while they do have their good sides, as a general purpose infantry unit I'd say they have more down sides.

Steve

[Blackhorse]

I have definitive proof

The German Order of Battle, Infantry in World War II

by George F. Nafziger

pg 33-34

Volksgrenadier Division

"Late 1944 saw a new formation in the German infantry. The Volksgrenadier Division. When divisions were destroyed and reconstituted from the various replacement divisions they were redesignated "Volksgrenadier" or People's Grenadier" division in an effort to regenerate some enthusiasm for them...

Their heavy equipment was less substantial than that of a regular infantry division...

However, the infantry was equipped with large numbers of sub machineguns and anti-tank weapons

Fusilier Company:

Company Staff

1 Sub Machinegun Platoon

2nd sub machinegun platoon

Reconnaissance platoon

Heavy Weapon Platoon.

There you have it.

It's so nice to be at Fort Knox, with all these reference materials close at hand.

Thank You Patton Museum library and Armor Center Book Store.

Allons.

[This message has been edited by Blackhorse (edited 06-05-2000).]

[killmore]

15:1 casualty ratio was obviously wrong.

I can only assume that Nazi propaganda kept quoting that number to prove that SU is winning only due to their "barbarian hordes".

[Lee]

What sort of equipment did the recon. platoon have in a SMG company?

Is this platoon in the TO&E of SMG companies in CM?

Seems Steve's info. has been verified once and for all, unless some

very serious evidence to the contrary can be brought forth.

I instinctively knew the Germans had to have large units armed with

vast quantities of MP-40's. It's simply too cool and devastating a

weapon not to use en masse when one gets the chance.

[Keith]

According to the Handbook On German military forces the PRACTICAL firing rate of a HEAVY MG42 is 500 rpm, vs 250 rpm as a light machine gun. Thus the distinction. Doing the math, for 15 minutes of sustained firing you would need roughly 7500 rounds. That is some heavy metal.

[MG Mannschft]

It Was WILD Back then. Everything goes.

Steve:

According to the German Infantry Handbook, (Again By Alex Buchner) from the Origanel German, States that there was a machine Gun Squad that advanced infront of the Rifle Squad which covered the Machine Gun. That is totally the Opposite of a US Squad. Which sets up it's Clumbsy .30 Cal (1919) To Cover it's Advancing Infantry. This Held ture through out the War Untill the Regular Army Units, SS And Heer Excluding the Volkgrenadiers could no Longer Mount a effective Attack. Remember the Volksgrendiers where a Strickly a Home defence Force, Their Actions proved it during the Very short Time from Sept. 1944 to April of 1945.

Another Thing On Volksgrenadiers, Apart of what you might think they where equiped with, There Training was non-Exsitant Remember these where not formed from regular army Troops. They where Elderly and The young. There was no Time for Training.

Also, When It comes to forming new Divisions, Of either Heer or Waffen-SS Units they where formed from Remnants of Heer or Waffen-SS Troops, Not from Volksgrenadier people.

Case in Point the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" Was fromed from Personal from the LAH to serve as the Nucleus

for the Division as for Training and To fill The NCO and Officer positions.

AS far as the Weight Issue in a HMG Team is concerned: The Germans Learned Ealry on that with the Extra two men Plus a Division of Labor including carrying Extra Ammuntion Around their Necks, The Load of ammunition was Distributed evenly throughout the Machine Gun Squad. Even the Rifle squad Which was Apart of it, Carryied Ammuntion for the Machine Gun since they all worked as a Team.

The Browing .30 Machine Gun (1919) was Replaced by the M-60 (A MG-42 Clone) because it took the Amercians 15 Years to Figure out how to move a Machine Gun fast and Effectivly.

"Actually, depends on what unit you are talking about. Some first rate remains of shattered divisions were converted into Volksgrenadier divisions. There is nothing inherently inferior about this formation from a manpower standpoint compared to Pattern 44 Infantry Divisions, Panzer Divisions, or any other type of front line division receiving new soliders at this point in the war. The Pattern 45 Infantry division was based, in part, on the Volksgrenadier TO&E."

In Truth The Volksgrenadiers where formed from Old Men Beyong the Age for combat, and The very young (Under 14) to serve as a last ditch effort to save germany. They would be Considered "4F" by our Standerds, And not of Much Military Value except for Cannon Fodder.

(Note: Read "Panzer Battles" By Von Mellenthin to get some Idea of what I are talking about)

The Above is in Responce to the Reality of how the german Army fought and their Compasition during WWII.

The Next Part is Your Game.

One: The Use of Realistic Tactics.

In this Responce to "1" I Will Agree that your Tactical Setups are good and I do Agree that your Statment "CM isnt Perfect" But as far as fundamentals flaws go there might be some.

Two: Heavy Machine gun Teams.

The only way inwhich a HMG was used by the Germans was to Cover a Area while The Troops Re-Organized provide protection inbetween attacks and defences. And Remember a HMG team inly have one Difference in the German Army Between it's Lighter counterparts: Ammunition and two Extra Men.

Three: Volksgrenadier SMG Units.

Since your Game does not Hinge on the Realistic use of Volksgrenadier Sub-Machine Gun Units, and you have only one scorce of information on them, I'll be glad to overlook this one.

In your Answer to RMC about the Use of MP-40's It was "Wild Back then" They had MP-40's Coming out of their Ears and the MP-44's they had WAREHOUSES FULL of them! Except if your are a Gun Collector, Which I am. Just Try to Find one that Hasnt been Cut, that's been sitting in a Warehouse for 55 Years Just waiting to be Bought by a Collector. You Will Be lucky to Find a Extremly used MP-44, Which by the Way are RARE for about $7,000.

Lee:

As Far as your Comment on Instinctively knowing that the Germans Had Large Units Armed with Vase Quantities of MP-40s, "It was WILD Back Then." All of the Big Factories that were'nt bombed by the Allies where Producing them by the Millions. Oh, And By the way, Just Try to Find one to By these days, They must still have them locked in their Warehouses.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

Keith, If you dont know what you are Talking about, Dont Speak.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

Keith

The Cyclic rate of Fire on a MG-42 is 1,300 to 1,500 Round per minute. But The Germans never Fired long bursts of Ammunition since Ammunition was VERY Scarce.

Steve.

How Ever so much you Wish the Germans just had "Bucketloads" of Ammunition. You Are Gravly mistaken. Ammo was Scarce and They kept their bursts of their Machine Guns, to a Minimum. They where told And Disaplined not to fire more then 10 to 20 round Bursts.

MG

[Guest Germanboy]

MG - What exactly have we been smoking tonight?

Has anybody ever explained the difference between Volkssturm and Volksgrenadier to you? Or is that not necessary because you believe you know everything already?

The same goes for the rate of fire - regardless of how much ammo you have, you can only do short bursts on an air-cooled MG. It overheats. I suggest you give it a try in your re-enactment group.

Maybe you should leave thinking to the horses, they have bigger heads you know. (Another German proverb, BTW)

I suggest, before you come back on here and waste everybody's time, some German lessons and some basic history lessons would not go wasted on you.

If I had had any doubt that you are an arrogant little clueless pain, it would be gone by now.

------------------

Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest Madmatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

Keith, If you dont know what you are Talking about, Dont Speak.

MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet you continue to post yourself? How odd...

By the way, what exactly IS the methodology of your capitalization routine? I used to think it was every Noun, but then I see words like "WISH" capitalized. Then I looked at perhaps some sort of alternate word or sentence scheme but again came up blank. I have since run your posts through some serious cryptology algorithms with not so much as a hint to the pattern which HAS to be hidden within. Just curious is all...

Madmatt

Oh and be sure to BITE ME with all the rest...

------------------

If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex

Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing

[MG Mannschft]

Germanboy,

In Responce to Rate of Fire, And Burning up Ammunition on a MG-42, Its not like a .30 Cal american Gun Inwhich you need a Screw driver and about 20 minutes to change a Hot Barrel, the Allies just let the gun Cool down, If you are a True German who Has seen or heard of a German MG-42, Then you already know they the Barrel On a MG-42 can Be Changed in Seconds but just Poping the Barrel out by the side.

Obviously, You dont know the Gun.

MG

[MG Mannschft]

And GermanBoy and MadMatt,

PLEASE sick the The SUBJECT matter which is realisum in a game. DONT Get all upset.

I'm not. I'm offering Contrustive Critizium, I Suggest you do the Same. If you are going to Prasie the Game, Praise it, If you're going to Critize it, do it Constructivly.

Dont Take It personally.

MG

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

Germanboy,

In Responce to Rate of Fire, And Burning up Ammunition on a MG-42, Its not like a .30 Cal american Gun Inwhich you need a Screw driver and about 20 minutes to change a Hot Barrel, the Allies just let the gun Cool down, If you are a True German who Has seen or heard of a German MG-42, Then you already know they the Barrel On a MG-42 can Be Changed in Seconds but just Poping the Barrel out by the side.

Obviously, You dont know the Gun.

MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was only trained on the MG3 in the Bundeswehr, so I must be a moron, like everybody who disagrees with you. Ever thought that maybe there were not as many replacement barrels as you might want? You know, there was a war on at the time, it is not like re-enactment where you can just get them.

Hmmm, why do I bother, I know you won't address this point as well as you have not addressed any point where someone has proven you wrong. Well, we now know that you have read one book in your life - Buchner's. Care to back up your sweeping statements with something else? What about your idiotic mistake of Volksgrenadier vs. Volkssturm? Maybe admit you were wrong?

Hmm, I did not think so. So what I said about horses still stands.

------------------

Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[THumpre]

Please, please don't bother to respond to MG-I Know It All And You Don't -Mannshft. It is so obvious that he isn't going to listen to anyone because he knows he's RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG. This is the most amazing example of pig-headed, close mindedness that I have ever seen. This guy is rude, obnoxious, and a complete sphincter.

------------------

No matter where you go, there you are.

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

According to the German Infantry Handbook, (Again By Alex Buchner) from the Origanel German, States that there was a machine Gun Squad that advanced infront of the Rifle Squad which covered the Machine Gun.

Remember the Volksgrendiers where a Strickly a Home defence Force, Their Actions proved it during the Very short Time from Sept. 1944 to April of 1945.

Another Thing On Volksgrenadiers, Apart of what you might think they where equiped with, There Training was non-Exsitant Remember these where not formed from regular army Troops. They where Elderly and The young. There was no Time for Training.

(Note: Read "Panzer Battles" By Von Mellenthin to get some Idea of what I are talking about)

Two: Heavy Machine gun Teams...

...Ammunition and two Extra Men.

Three: Volksgrenadier SMG Units.

Since your Game does not Hinge on the Realistic use of Volksgrenadier Sub-Machine Gun Units, and you have only one scorce of information on them, I'll be glad to overlook this one.

MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG,

You are starting to look foolish (I'm being lenient).

First of all, I showed you a second source explaining Volksgrenadier composition. The source was George Nafzifger. Ever heard of him? Any response?

A few questions for you.

1. Who the hell is this guy Alex Buchner you keep popping off about? What are his credentials?

2. I want direct quotes from his book showing the use of the HMG, the LMG, and any other MG. If you want to maintain any legitimacy in this arguemnt, you better get reading and writing fella.

3.I, no scratch that, We want you to go ahead and quote Herr Buchner on the TO&E of the Volksgrenadier while you're at it.

Oh, and a few more things.

1.Volksgrenadier ARE NOT VOLKSSTURM

2.You seem incapable of understanding that the HMG moves as fast as any squa in CM. Oh hey, did you miss that? The only thing they can't do is run. How long does it take to break down a HMG from the Lafette Mount? How long does it take to set up? What magnification are the optics?

3. Your website has two ranks that are utter rubbish. SS Oberpanzergrenadier and SS Panzergrenadier. Where the heck did you dig those up... ALex Buchner?

Now, go do your research and get back when you've compiled the quotes from the book.

Allons

[Guest Big Time Software]

OK everyone...

I am taking myself out of this discussion. It is clear that MG Mannshft has a whole lot to learn. Not knowing the difference between Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm is pretty bad. I also looked back at his first posting and he did not even know there was such a thing as a heavy machinegun in the German Army. And he also seems to have no idea what he is talking about as far as practical and cyclical rates of fire.

MG, you need to listen a lot more. So far you have done little by spout off irrelevant or even incorrect stuff. You think you know everything there is to know about everything, yet everytime you post you underscore the fact that you know far less than you think.

I for one am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about *and* doesn't have the ability to listen. I suggest that others do the same. Time is something that can not be reclaimed once spent, so spend it wisely.

Steve

[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackhorse:

MG,

You are starting to look foolish (I'm being lenient).

First of all, I showed you a second source explaining Volksgrenadier composition. The source was George Nafzifger. Ever heard of him? Any response?

A few questions for you.

1. Who the hell is this guy Alex Buchner you keep popping off about? What are his credentials?

2. I want direct quotes from his book showing the use of the HMG, the LMG, and any other MG. If you want to maintain any legitimacy in this arguemnt, you better get reading and writing fella.

3.I, no scratch that, We want you to go ahead and quote Herr Buchner on the TO&E of the Volksgrenadier while you're at it.

Oh, and a few more things.

1.Volksgrenadier ARE NOT VOLKSSTURM

2.You seem incapable of understanding that the HMG moves as fast as any squa in CM. Oh hey, did you miss that? The only thing they can't do is run. How long does it take to break down a HMG from the Lafette Mount? How long does it take to set up? What magnification are the optics?

3. Your website has two ranks that are utter rubbish. SS Oberpanzergrenadier and SS Panzergrenadier. Where the heck did you dig those up... ALex Buchner?

Now, go do your research and get back when you've compiled the quotes from the book.

Allons<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh. Check back a few posts. The info you posted, I already let 'im have it with it!

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