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Tank-Grogs: plz Identify!

Lindan
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Fionn Senior Member

Fionn

Posted
Posted

Pike,

We're talking about an incorrect restoration by the museum.

if it was simply a non-standard conversion during wartime then we'd say that.

Helge,

I agree with what you're saying about the Schwingarmen and bogies BUT IMO it looks like they may be T70 bogies. Admittedly the third return roller ( as found on T60s) is missing but I put that down to a bad restoration.

Hmm, the more we get into this the more mysterious it becomes.

The three obvious prime suspect chassis are:

Pz II,

38 t and

T60

We've pretty much proven it is none of the above but can't rule out some bastardisation of a T60 or Pz II chassis.

The superstructure isn't also "typical" Wespe from what I can see so perhaps Helge is right when he says it could be a scratch-built facsimile. If it is then there's no telling what the chassis originally was until such time as the museum rings in with an answer.

Lindan,

I'd be very interested in the museum's answer and any further pictures.

Do you have anything showing the suspension in more detail.. Most of the IDs of obscure conversions are made from detailed inspection of suspensions but this pic isn't the best when it comes to suspension details ( which is what is making it harder for Helge, Tiger and myself.)

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Lutz Member

Lutz

Posted
Posted

O.K. guys, I actually went home, took a look at Anweiler/Blank:"Die Rad- und Kettenfahrzeuge der Bundeswehr" and found the following picture:

hotchf1.jpg

You can also view it at a higher resolution at http://www.geocities.com/lpaelke/cargofir.jpg .

According to the book, this is a CC2(Cargo) by Hotchkiss-Brandt, converted to a fire engine.

Here are two more pictures of an unconverted NschPz CC2(Cargo) from the same book: http://www.geocities.com/lpaelke/hotchkis.jpg

If you compare these with the picture Lindan took, and take away the added parts (purple)

wespe_hotchkiss.jpg

I think it is pretty clear that this Wespe is actually a modified Hotchkiss.

The real tough question that remains now is: For which movie was this modification done?

Lutz

[This message has been edited by Lutz (edited 08-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lutz (edited 08-15-2000).]

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Lindan Senior Member

Lindan

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Aehm, aeh sorry! redface.gif When we walked through the museum's Panzergarten I just thought "Hey cool it looks like my Wespe that is so nicely burning in my pbem vs. Chaos, let's take a picture or two".(I wasn't "groggy" enough to notice something unusual) Only later did I get an email from my friend Warphead who told me that the suspension isn't right.

I sent the email to the museum this afternoon and will post the other picture as soon as I get home.

------------------

visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring

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The DesertFox Senior Member

The DesertFox

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Posted

No need to feel sorry Lindan.

You gave us all an interesting training for our little grey cells <G>

And an interesting excurse about the possible pitfalls of tank identification.

I enjoyed it.

Helge

------------------

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

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Guest Michael emrys

Guest Michael emrys

Posted
Posted

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lutz:

I think that this is actually based on a postwar Hotchkiss TT6, probably modified to look like a Wespe for a movie.

For pictures take a look at

http://www.panzermuseum.com/halle1/tour__cargo.htm

for the 4 wheel version used here and

Lutz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good call, Lutz! This is clearly it. Even at this angle the road wheels are plainly identical and the spacing is right. Angle of the glacis looks good too.

Michael

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Formerly Babra Senior Member

Formerly Babra

Posted
Posted

I just got home and found MakJager's pics, but I guess there's no point putting them up now. Good call on the Hotchkiss.

(And I say it was for the town scene in Kelly's Heroes) smile.gif

------------------

Lucasta, when to France your man

Returns his fourth time, hating war,

Yet laughs as calmly as he can

And flings an oath, but says no more,

That is not courage, that’s not fear—

Lucasta he’s a Fusilier,

And his pride sends him here.

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Zamo Senior Member

Zamo

Posted
Posted

Here is another picture I took of the same beast. I seem to recall it was a post war weapon not a movie prop. I also think it was either from one of the Scandanavian countries, but that may be incorrect. You can see the running gear here is exactly what you guys have already pegged it as. My father has the Sinsheim book we bought while there, I will try and get it and see if it talks about this vehicle. Though I'm sure you guys will have it all figured out by then. Note the placard at the bottom may say "Bofors" which may be a clue as to who made it...

unknown.jpg

Respectfully, Zamo

[This message has been edited by Zamo (edited 08-15-2000).]

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Måkjager Senior Member

Måkjager

Posted
Posted

Fair play to Lutz for the id of this "ufo" vehicle, i'm sorry if i confused the issue by throwing in the T60/T70 ..but they were the only tanks that i had photos of that looked nearly like it.Thanks to Formerly Babra for taking his time with my email.......and now for another tricky bit

according to a good friend of mine he has learned that the first 50 Wespes to see action at Kursk were Panzerjager armed with Pak 40s ..hence the ballistic slope on the Wespe fighting compartment ..rather like the later Marder III Aufsf M on the Pz 38 t chassie....anybody else hear of this before ????

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Formerly Babra Senior Member

Formerly Babra

Posted
Posted

I find difficulty believing that this vehicle saw any real service. I don't know anything about the Hotchkiss chassis, but it just looks too light to carry that load. The tracks look way too narrow. The Notek light is sideways (was anybody even using those post-war?). The camo is...well...hollywood looking. Looks like somebody's mock-up to me.

------------------

Lucasta, when to France your man

Returns his fourth time, hating war,

Yet laughs as calmly as he can

And flings an oath, but says no more,

That is not courage, that’s not fear—

Lucasta he’s a Fusilier,

And his pride sends him here.

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Lutz Member

Lutz

Posted
Posted

Helge: YIPEEH!!!! I won a toaster! Now what do I have to do to claim my price?

Lindan: About the Sturmspüle Sdkfz 69: well I think a Küchenspüle would actually fit quite nicely in the back of Hotchkiss Cargo wink.gif

Maybe this is actually not suposed to be a Wespe, but a spigot mortar to fire the much dreaded "Ideal Standard Kloschüssel" ?

Lutz

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The DesertFox Senior Member

The DesertFox

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Helge: YIPEEH!!!! I won a toaster! Now what do I have to do to claim my price?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lutz,

Ja, und sogar einen Mark LXVII mit eingebauter Geschirrspuelmaschine. Na, was sagst Du nun ?

Problem ist nur, er hat eine Leistungsaufnahme von 25000 Watt....

Cheers

Helge

------------------

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

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kverdon Senior Member

kverdon

Posted
Posted

I was reading Steve Zaloga's, Colin Bane's "

Dday Tank Warfare" and they mention that a German Arty officer by the name of Alfred Becker shipped a bunch of captured French/British vehicles back to his familly contacts in the German industry and had them converted to odd SP guns and Halftracks. Could this be one such conversion?

Kevin

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Formerly Babra Senior Member

Formerly Babra

Posted
Posted

Kverdon,

I don't think the ban on the "B" word has been lifted yet wink.gif

However, I believe Herr B's modifications were based on the H39(?). The chassis pictured above looks like a post-war introduction. Then again, what I know about French tanks is remarkably limited.

Jane's is the place for answers on this one I think.

------------------

There are two things you should never do:

Never get involved in a land war in Asia; and

Never try to out-kill a Sicilian!

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Lutz Member

Lutz

Posted
Posted

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The DesertFox:

Ja, und sogar einen Mark LXVII mit eingebauter Geschirrspuelmaschine. Na, was sagst Du nun ?

(For our English speaking friends: Yes, even a Mk 67 with intgrated dishwasher. What do you say now?)

Wow! Ich bin begeistert.

(Wow! I'm amazed.)

Problem ist nur, er hat eine Leistungsaufnahme von 25000 Watt....

(Only problem is, it has a power consumption of 25000 Watt....)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kein Problem, ich hab 'nen 380 V, 65 A Anschluss im Labor. Der sollte passen. Nur mein Chef könnte sauer werden, wenn ich den Laser abklemme, nur um mir 'nen Toast zu machen.

(No problem, I have a 380 V, 65 A power outlet in my lab. That should fit. Only my boss might be pissed, if I disconnect the laser, just for making toast.)

Ich kann's kaum erwarten das Teil auszuprobieren.

(I can't hardly wait to try this thing out.)

Lutz

Junior Member since August 2nd, 1999

Hey that's over a year, does that make me a "Senior Junior Member" ?

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