T19 105mm HMC

[Reno]

There's a half track in Kelly's Heroes with what looks to be a 105 on the back. Is this a T19? I tried to find a photo on the web and in the reference material but came up short. The HMS Encyclopedia of Land Combat say 320 of these were made in '42 but dropped from inventory less than a year later after a poor showing in North Africa. Anyone know where I can find a photo and more info? Anyone know where they stored the ammo and hid the crew of six?

[Slapdragon]

That was either a GMC or an HMC 75mm, probably a 75mm GMC antitank gun that was issued to some Infantry recon and mobile units. It was not exactly common by fall 1944 when the movie is set on (it makes fun of Pattons lust to take Metz but changes it to Nancy) and it was not loved by troops, but it was still in use.

I am not sure of its model designation.

[Reno]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

>>That was either a GMC or an HMC 75mm, probably a 75mm GMC antitank gun that was issued to some Infantry recon and mobile units.<<

Maybe..but I don't think so. I saw the KH movie last night so it's pretty fresh in my mind. I don't think it looked anything like the 75. I found a couple photos of the M3 GMC, one's the real thing and the other's a model. I also found a couple photos of the T19 but unfortunately they're models too, but you can still see the difference and it pretty much fits with what I remember seeing. I'd have posted the photos here but I don't have a clue how to do that so here's the websites..

http://www.qualitycast.com/us6000.htm

http://www.ghqmodels.com/ww2armor/us64.html

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/armored-halftracks/13.jpg

http://www.modelcrafters.com/default2.asp

I know there's got to be some info on the T19 out there somewhere but I sure can't find it. My guess is CM won't be modeling these things anytime soon so it's not a big deal..just curious, especially about how they were deployed and why they had such a hard time in North Africa. Thanks for the response.

[M Hofbauer]

The T19 was indeed the 105mm GMC, ie, a halftrack with a 105mm gun. The 75mm gun on a halftrack was designated the M3 GMC.

The T19 was replaced by the M7 Priest, to which it was sort of a predecessor in role as a self-propelled installment of a 105mm howitzer. The frame of the original halftrack chassis had to be strengthened to account for the shock of firing the 105mm from the vehicle. Otherwise early tests were very successful and in March 1942 324 of these vehicles were ordered.

Besides the M2A1 105mm howitzer, the vehicle had a pedestal mount which accepted a 50cal HMG. The total crew was six.

The range of the howitzer was limited in the vehicular mount to 11,700 yards due to restrictions in possible elevation.

To answer your question where it packed all that crew and ammo for that big gun:

the T19 carried only 8 rounds of ammo for the 105mm (the M7 caried 69 rounds), which is, when you contemplate it, actually less of a problem than one might think, because it would usually be employed as artillery and hence have access to ammunition from storage or support vehicles.

I have a picture here ... the 105mm protrudes considerably over the driver compartment and engine hood, looks a little bit awkward.

Haven't seen the movie you are talking about, and probably never will, so I can't comment on that. Hope this helps nevertheless,

M.Hofbauer

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[Slapdragon]

I think the vehicle in the movie was an M3 GMC.

[Reno]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

>>I have a picture here ... the 105mm protrudes considerably over the driver compartment and engine hood, looks a little bit awkward.

Haven't seen the movie you are talking about, and probably never will, so I can't comment on that. Hope this helps nevertheless,<<

Thanks, it does. Can I ask what reference you're using? The only photos I've been able to find are of toys. Sorry to hear that you will probably not be seeing Kelly's Heroes. Just got the DVD. It's better than I remember. Great music, great characters, great one-liners, great equipment. If CM were to have an official mascot I imagine it would be the hamster. If it were to have an official movie I can't think of any better than Kelly's Heroes. It made the war an adventure and everybody in it a hero, and when they died, they didn't bleed.

If you ever find yourself in Reno, look me up. I got a widescreen TV with a killer sound system. We'll break open a bottle of Macallan and crank up the volume til the walls shake and my wife throws us out of the house.

[Ellros]

The howitzer on the M3 ih Kelly's heroes is pretty much a 75mm pack howitzer. I'm pretty sure it's too small to be a 105mm pack. And as Slapdragon said, it was uncommon in that particular theater. It saw much more use in North Africa and Italy IIRC.

[Slapdragon]

Just to educate people about Kelly's Heroes

Brian Hutton directed Kelly's Heroes (1970), and it is one of the last true all-star war movies that will ever be made, it is far to expensive to hire that sort of talent, and most big name talent's contracts stipulate that they will not be cast in an ensemble group (bad for yoru publicity engine).

Kelly's heroes also used an enourmous amount of vintage war equipment including something like 5 Shermans, 50 trucks, 6 halftracks, jeeps, and German AFvs. Also, it used a shoot technique of showing wide vistas that is no longer used: it is to hard to clear all the modern cars and TV antannae out of a 5-10 km squar area to get the proper back drop. Saving Private Ryan used a much more closed shet of shots so that they did not need to do much more on the vistas.

Speaking of Saving Private Ryan, in many ways it was the counterpoint to Kelly's Heroes, and for that reason you can see purposeful parralells between the story line of the two works. Interestingly enough, these two movies are two of the most popular movies with veterans, but both have antiwar motifes.

Hutton tried all through the movie to capture reality: he used vintage equipment when movies like Patton used modern equipment, he shot in the same area that the unit Kelly belonged to (the 35th Infantry Division) fought in. He was very critical of Patton's desire for Metz, but he had his characters state that they were not under Patton, then went right ahead and made Carole Oconnor a Patton clone. He changed Metz to Nancy, which was were the 35th served, but he built a realistic look at the moment in time. He included lots of tidbits from some of his crew's service in World War Two, including Oddball's reluctance to face Tigers with his 75 armed Shermans, and his attempts to disguise his M4s to look like E8s.

Oddball, Kelly, Crapgame, Mulligan, the Captain, and the General all have real life equivilants either in the casts personal experience or in archetype. Urban legend also plays a great roll in the movie: Killroy, Nazi Gold, the forgotten gypsy tank unit, and others were dug up to make the movie work.

Many people who are not forced to write a paper as undergraduates on this movie miss some interesting things thrown into the mix. CrapGame is lied to when doing his math by a soldier, who in the screen play was a math wiz. Bands were disbanded during the Nancy-Metz push to give Patton enough infantry to attack into Chateau Salins and continue pushing on Metz.

Kelly's Heroes was of the same era as MASH.

[John Kettler]

Having recently seen Kelly's Heroes and having built a model of one as a child, I can assure all of you that what's in the movie is either a T-19 or something designed to pass for one visually. I watched this film most carefully specifically to confirm or deny an earlier impression that I had seen a T-19, a rare piece of armor.

As I write this, I have No. 12 of the Leavenworth Papers before me. Titled Seek, Strike, and Destroy: U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in World War II, it was published September 1985 by Dr. Christopher R. Gabel of the Combat Studies Institute of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

Pages 28 and 31 of this seminal work have photos of the 75mm armed M-3 tank destroyer, which is notable for the long barrel, the absence of an upper recuperator, and for the presence of a low armor shield with closed sides.

The vehicle in the film has a short barrel, an upper and lower recuperator and no shield. The gun looks just like a 105mm howitzer (have seen hundreds of 105s on film and in photos, as well as real ones on several occasions in person).

For the record, I've seen quite a bit of footage of M-3 tank destroyers in both the European Theater of Operations and the Pacific Theater of Operations. I even spotted one in a World at War segment on combat in Normandy.

In short, I saw no evidence that the vehicle in Kelly's Heroes was an M-3 tank destroyer, and plenty of evidence that it was a) a real T-19; a real vintage halftrack with a 105mm

howitzer custom mounted on it after the war; or c) a real vintage halftrack with a 105mm howitzer visual mockup installed.

Regards,

John Kettler

[pzvg]

To put an end to the great debate yes it was a T19, it was borrowed from Aberdeen for the film. APG legend has it that Hutton wanted an M3, but we didn't have one of those at the time.

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[M Hofbauer]

Reno, thanks for the invitation, and Slapdragon thanks for the explanation/narrative on "Kelly's Heroes". The reason why I said I never saw it and probably never will is, of course, that I live here in germany. Maybe it was aired under a very different name, but I can't remember having seen any film that matches your description. Many years ago back when SKY One wasn't encrypted they ran this old (1950ies?) series called combat or something. It was a soap opera of a neverending Bulge offensive it seems, it was funny in it's awkward way, especially how they depicted the germans.

Back to business: Reno, I took the info from the US Army Catalog of Standard Ordnance Items (1944). And here are the pictures (from same publication) to further aid in your quest:

hope this helps to identify the vehicle in question

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

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"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[Guest Warphead-]

The German name is "Stosstrupp Gold". I saw it two or three times already on different private tv-channels. I also saw it on vhs-video a few years back. It is entertaining stuff

[This message has been edited by Warphead- (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

Some more interesting facts from Hollywood. All of the prop weapons used were the real thing. The scene with Don Rickles grabbing the machinegun and asking if he could pay anyone to carry it had him almost fall over. He really did almost fall over.

Many movies real weapons are not used. In the TV show Combat! , Vic Morrow, not being a veteran, was given his script and saw he was to use a "tommy gun" and said cool. The weapon looked tough.

Rick Jason, who played Gil Hanely, looked at his script, saw he was also to have a tommy gun, and being a veteran said "NO WAY". Jason was given a carbine at his own request, saying no way was he going to spend an entire show run lugging 11 pounds of metal around a stage.

So the first day of shooting rolls around, and Vic Morrow figures out what Rick Jason already knew: 11 pounds is a lot of metal. It was so much metal that they had to make Vic Morrow one made out of wood, only giving him the firing model when it was time to shoot some blanks. (Vic Morrow was licky in some ways. Blanks and squibs as a movie device were first used in the middle thirties. To late for James Cagney, who in one roll had to duck under a car while 3 guys fired real Tommy guns at it, 150 shots in all).

Of course, if you are not the star, you carry the metal -- which is what Jack Hogan had to do. The first season he just carried an M1, but it was pointed out that a BAR should be used with the squad in the hands of a speaking character (as opposed to a "red shirt"). Hogan got it by default and carried it 4 more years, but never complained. Jalbert may have been a better choice to carry the BAR, as he was an olympic skier and the only real athlete in the bunch.

Some other interesting facts: If you know a little French, the character Caje played by Pierre Jalbert, speaks French with a French, and sometimes a Quebecoius but not a Cajun accent! Only his English has a Cajun accent -- he never bothered to learn Cajun French because it was assumed no one would know the difference (I good bet in the US). Of course when Combat came to France his lac k of an American-French Cajun accent was seen as very funny.

Vic Morrow never was able to learn any French - and it shows. He also at times makes terrible blunders -- such as asking a nun for help with his equipment, which translated into a dirty joke in French in 1960s. It was redubbed for the French version of Combat.

Another interesting fact is that the platoon had a similar casualty rate to a real US Army platoon in the 16th or 116th Infantry (by process of elimination the only units King Company could have really belonged to). 123 extras were "killed" in the TV show. According to the Combat web site, one extra did a lot of this falling over grabbing his chest: Walt Davis was killed two dozen times as either a German or an American soldier, in one show shooting himself, as the scene was done twice, once from the US and once from the German perspective (actually to save money on extras), and no one noticed that they had cast the same guy as "American Getting Shot", and "German Shooting American".

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Many movies real weapons are not used. In the TV show Combat! , Vic Morrow, not being a veteran, was given his script and saw he was to use a "tommy gun" and said cool. The weapon looked tough.

Rick Jason, who played Gil Hanely, looked at his script, saw he was also to have a tommy gun, and being a veteran said "NO WAY". Jason was given a carbine at his own request, saying no way was he going to spend an entire show run lugging 11 pounds of metal around a stage.

So the first day of shooting rolls around, and Vic Morrow figures out what Rick Jason already knew: 11 pounds is a lot of metal. It was so much metal that they had to make Vic Morrow one made out of wood, only giving him the firing model when it was time to shoot some blanks.

Of course, if you are not the star, you carry the metal -- which is what Jack Hogan had to do. The first season he just carried an M1, but it was pointed out that a BAR should be used with the squad in the hands of a speaking character (as opposed to a "red shirt"). Hogan got it by default and carried it 4 more years, but never complained. Jalbert may have been a better choice to carry the BAR, as he was an olympic skier and the only real athlete in the bunch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What always gave me a laugh when watching "Combat!" was how Vic Morrow could fire his Thompson SMG for extended periods and NEVER and I mean NEVER have to change the 30 shot magazine on his gun. It was like it was a belt fed Thommy oh, and of course, despite the extended periods he fired the weapon it never ever jammed either. I guess those were the perks of having the star billing status.

Regards

Jim R.

[Slapdragon]

At one point they were using CO2 weapons for firing scenes.

[Hakko Ichiu]

Just to chime in, the tank that Oddball is driving is supposed to carry a 76mm gun. He says so to Kelly when explaining the gun extension that he uses.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Reno]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

>>Some more interesting facts from Hollywood. All of the prop weapons used were the real thing.<<

Good stuff, Slappy..I know next to nothing about vintage small arms but I heard the GI in the bell tower was using a German GEW 43 sniper rifle. They definitely went the extra mile on the equipment, although I don't know how common it would be for a GI to be using a German sniper rifle. Hey, so what. It looked good.

[Reno]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

>>I watched this film most carefully specifically to confirm or deny an earlier impression that I had seen a T-19, a rare piece of armor.<<

Pretty much the way I felt too. Amazing that there was still one around considering only 320 or so ever existed. Even more amazing to find it in a war movie, some 25 years later, looking and acting like it still wanted to fight.

>>As I write this, I have No. 12 of the Leavenworth Papers before me...<<

Another great source. Thanks, John. I had no idea that the gizmo on top of the barrel was an upper recuperator but I knew that it was something the 75 didn’t have.

[Reno]

Originally posted by pzvg:

>>APG legend has it that Hutton wanted an M3, but we didn't have one of those at the time.<<

"WE?" Do you work there? If so, is this particular vehicle still in your museum? The details of how this loan to Hollywood came about and how the T19 travelled across the world would make interesting reading in some publication I would think.

[Reno]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

>>The reason why I said I never saw it and probably never will is, of course, that I live here in germany.<<

I thought that might be the reason. Never say "never". It's an open invite. No expiration. Your photos and source material are great. Just what I was looking for. Thanks.

[pzvg]

Reno, I was at APG for about 8 months waay back in the early 80's. I was a holdover on orders, so I basically did spit and polish work. (but I did get to drive tanks when they needed moving) You really want to talk to the curator staff if you want to hear some really neat stories about the equipment there

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[pzvg]

Follow up; AFAIK, that one (we had 2) is still on the west coast, don't know if the studios have it or the California National Guard (they have "official" ownership) I know it's been used in a few war movies as a "vehicluar extra" As for how it came about, that was before my time, And I'm afraid the details of moving it were probably rather dull, as moving equipment at the Dump usually consists of; A driving it onto transporter, B driving to railhead, C driving onto Flatcar, and D waving bye-bye.

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[Guest AbnAirCav]

Excellent thread, glad I did a search and found it!

I do have a question, tho. I'm not too familiar with the U.S. Army doctrine on direct fire anti-tank with their self-propelled artillery ... while I understand that the M2 105mm howitzer did fire HEAT, were the T19 105mm HMC & the M7 105mm Priest used much in this role? In the movie Cowboy and his T19 were sent out of the barn to greet three German tanks ...

[Formerly Babra]

The Cannon Company of the 16th Infantry (in T19s) was awarded a Presidential Unit Citation for a defensive action against elements of the HG Pz Div near Gela, Sicily, in '43. They were credited with the destruction of six German tanks and halting the attack.

EDIT: My source says they were not intended for anti-tank work, however, so I doubt HEAT was in the load-out.

[This message has been edited by Formerly Babra (edited 12-03-2000).]

[Formerly Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...he shot in the same area that the unit Kelly belonged to (the 35th Infantry Division) fought in...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KH was shot in Yugoslavia, IIRC.