Guest grunto Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Hi, I was on this Russian armored web site and it was saying the Tiger I had better AP-penetration than the Panther. Is this right? Squad Leader gave that "75LL" of the Panther the edge over the Tiger's "88L." TIA Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 ASL/SL has it correct. While the difference is not that big at long ranges against sloped armor, the Panther's gun does edge out the Tiger I's no problem. The King Tiger, on the other hand, beats the Panther by a wide margin. Perhaps the guy who wrote up that site got the two confused? Interesting to note... the Tiger's HE can rip apart most Allied tanks that landed at Normandy without much problem. It has about a 30% edge over the Panther's HE penetration capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Posted by BTS <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ASL/SL has it correct. While the difference is not that big at long ranges against sloped armor, the Panther's gun does edge out the Tiger I's no problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why was that? more muzzle compression in the LL? better AP shell? curious, ------------------ Horrido! michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakker@home Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 7.5 cm kwk42 L/70 Weight of shell: 6.80 kg Muzzle velocity: 925 m/s 8.8 cm kwk36 L/56 Wieght of shell: 10.2 kg Muzzle velocity: 773 m/s The kwk42 put more velocity into the round aka more kinetic power. Grtz S Bakker. ------------------ Visit my CM site! The bunker: http://bunker.panzershark.com Another proud member of the Panzershark webring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest entec Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bakker@home: 7.5 cm kwk42 L/70 Weight of shell: 6.80 kg Muzzle velocity: 925 m/s 8.8 cm kwk36 L/56 Wieght of shell: 10.2 kg Muzzle velocity: 773 m/s The kwk42 put more velocity into the round aka more kinetic power. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Must be something else because kinetic energy is 1/2mv^2 so the kwk42 L/70 put out 2.9MJ and the kwk36 L/56 put out 3.0MJ based on the numbers above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Wouldn't the determining factor be Kinetic Energy applied per unit of area? The 88mm round has greater cross-sectional area than the 75mm and so the 75mm applies more energy per sq cm than the 88. [This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 04-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zulu1 Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 entec is correct. The K.E. of both shells is roughly the same. So the fact that the 75mm shell is applying the same K.E. to a smaller hit area is my guess as to why the 75mm has better penetration. The 88 needs to penetrate roughly 37% more steel in area with the same energy as the 75mm shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zulu1 Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Darn, Cunningham beat me to the punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Interesting to note... the Tiger's HE can rip apart most Allied tanks that landed at Normandy without much problem. It has about a 30% edge over the Panther's HE penetration capabilities.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BTS Where would I find data on HE penetration capabilities for those guns? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest entec Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zulu1: applying the same K.E. to a smaller hit area is my guess as to why the 75mm has better penetration.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would think the the point of the projectile is were most of the energy is being applied, though there would still be a size of shell diameter effect. I would like to know if the above numbers refer to the total shell weight or the projetile weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 BTW, which one had the better armour? I think it's the Panther but I'm not sure. In WF/EF2 the Panther has got 13 and the Tiger 12 only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by entec: I would like to know if the above numbers refer to the total shell weight or the projetile weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The shell is the projectile. I say shell as opposed to shot because the German AP projectiles had a small HE charge in the back. Whats a good word for the projectile and propellent case? Some people call these "rounds". As in "ready rounds stored close to the gun". I call the combo ammo myself. But to answer your question it is projectile weight. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Lewis, As you might imagine, pentration numbers for HE are hard to come by. Charles found a smattering of scientific results and picked them apart to construct equations using shell mass, TNT mass, and striking velocity to arrive at penetration figures which he believes are pretty accurate. Not perfect, but when the scientific data is simply not to be had, then scientific deduction based on what little is know is the next best thing Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 Steve I have HE penetration data on the 7.5cm L24, 75mmL43 and 75/1000mL48 german tank guns. It gives penetration for HE vs Armor, Steel and concrete. I noticed that the HE shells seemed to be the same for all these weapons. Meaning the projectile weight and HE payload are the same. Not inconcievable considering that the "low" velocity L24 was 440m/sec and the "high" velocity L48 is 550m/sec. Anyway a good scientific model should compare its results with this data (if you already havent). Seems from the data that the SAME shell fired at a higher velocity certainly packs an extra wallop. Great for reducing hard targets like bunkers, reinforced houses, weapons pits, trenches, etc. But when thought through, I guess it makes a lot of physical sense. The 1/2mv2 of the moving shell should be taken into account. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyway a good scientific model should compare its results with this data (if you already havent).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, Charles did it in reverse He took the known results and made a system that not only reproduced them faithfully but also allowed him to churn out numbers for the weapons not know. In other words, instead of guessing at a system with no data his system was based on the data he did have. I am not sure which guns he had data for, but I do know he had data for the 75mm L/48. Charles also compared the numbers that were churned out with anecdotal scientific or observational data, not just comprensive weapons tests done under lab condtions. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: The King Tiger, on the other hand, beats the Panther by a wide margin. Perhaps the guy who wrote up that site got the two confused?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was wondering the same thing, but it was definitely Tiger I he was talking about, because there was a Tiger II section which followed. Thanks for the clarification Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted April 24, 2000 Share Posted April 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PanzerLeader: BTW, which one had the better armour? I think it's the Panther but I'm not sure. In WF/EF2 the Panther has got 13 and the Tiger 12 only...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Going back to Squad Leader, the Panther had better frontal protection while the Tiger was better on the sides and rear. The Panther had a reputation as being vulnerable from the rear while the Tiger I had pretty solid armor back there. FWIW Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: I am not sure which guns he had data for, but I do know he had data for the 75mm L/48. Charles also compared the numbers that were churned out with anecdotal scientific or observational data, not just comprensive weapons tests done under lab condtions. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well Im sure he would have reverse engineered it the way I would have. That is, remove as many variables as possible. A nice way to do it would to have the SAME HE shell travel at different velocitys. It would just then be a matter of a boundary value problem in differential equations. When I look at the unit info, I see a blast value for a HE weapon system. Isn't this then velocity dependant? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grunto: Armor thickness, Panther vs. Tiger I: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One more thing worth adding is that the Tiger I actually had a thicker plating up front, but it was practically vertical to the ground whereas the Panther's was sloped and the sloping gave the Panther better protection... if memory serves at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Lewis, I don't really know The blast effect is an aproximated value based on a bunch of different factors relating the shell, its delivery, and its lethality. How Charles came up with those numbers is all foggy as he generated the final ones about a year and a half ago. Overall armor... the Tiger has it on the Panther. But if I were to be in one, being shot at from the front, I'd choose the Panther. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 I remember during the previous debates about tiger vs panther comments were made regarding the width of the shell vs the thickness of the armor being impacted upon and it's having an effect making the 88 a better nutcracker than the panthers higher velocity 75. If someone knows what I'm talking about please enlighten us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Lewis, I don't really know Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ill accept that answer. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Whats a good word for the projectile and propellent case? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cartridge. Sounds funny for the very big bullets, but there it is. I really don't see why the velocity of an HE projectile would have any effect on hardened armor. Concrete- maybe, a little more penetration before detonation. But I would be genuinely curious to understand why velocity would have any effect on armor, when you're just setting off a big ball of gas? With a HEAT shaped-charge, velocity is not thought to contribute to the overall effect, so why would a conventional HE round? There would be no significant penetration. Is there some physic behind velocity alone as a shaper of non-shaped charges, by forcing some kind of blast pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s bakker Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 Regarding this subject wasn't there a website which focused on the performance of various caliber (tank)guns ? I recall it also discussed the physics involved and the differences in German and Allied rounds. Grtz S Bakker ------------------ Visit my CM site! The bunker: http://bunker.panzershark.com Another proud member of the Panzershark webring. [This message has been edited by s bakker (edited 04-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 25, 2000 Share Posted April 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: I really don't see why the velocity of an HE projectile would have any effect on hardened armor. But I would be genuinely curious to understand why velocity would have any effect on armor, when you're just setting off a big ball of gas? With a HEAT shaped-charge, velocity is not thought to contribute to the overall effect, so why would a conventional HE round? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well if you are hurling a 15 pound dense object at 1200 miles per hour, you have alot of energy there. Drop a 15 pound weight on your toe. Its probably only going a few feet per second. Anyway, that energy doesnt disappear when the HE detonates. It is an additive element to the explosion. Think of it as adding an extra punch. Its Physics. HE usually defeats armor by cracking or splitting the plate. It doesnt make a nice hole but rather cracks welds/pushes in plate/etc. The velocity of the shell is just more force applied against the plate. Since the velocity counts as a square term in the energy equation, E=1/2mv2, a small change in velocity can equate to alot more energy. In other words its nonlinear. HEAT weapons are susceptible to motion also. A spinning HEAT round is at a disadvantage to a fin stabilized rocket round (the spinning tends to centrifugally diffuse the concentrated explosion). So as a HEAT round goes downrange and loses rotational speed, it actually changes its penetration effects! I know this goes against alot of what you read but its true. A spinning HEAT round can be very effective against concrete by the way. Instead of blowing a small diameter hole, it will blast a hole big enough to put a grenade through or even blow down a wall. In a High Explosive environment, the escaping heat/blast (think shock wave)precedes the shrapnel (since the metal has alot more mass, it takes "longer" to accelerate). The shell bursts and the shock wave travels out somewhat spherically and loses energy as an inverse cube. It will then be over taken by the shrapnel (which moves through it), which has more mass and hence momentum and will reach out and kill someone at greater range. So when HE hits lets say a house, it rips open walls by the explosion/velocity energy followed by the shrapnel coming through. A very dynamic environment. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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