Gebirgsjager - why do they have their own squad type?

[Gary T]

I've just been looking through the available units and their composition and wondered why Gebirgsjager have their own squad type? As far as I know they were, at squad level, equipped the same as any regular Heer squad, not all SMG armed as in CM. GJ squads should really be represented by normal infantry squads. I can't see any reason for their seperate inclusion in CM especially given the fact that only one GJ division saw service on the Western Front (two if you include 6SS - which could be represented as SS squads).

There is more of a case for including British Royal Marines or American Rangers. I'm not being pedantic or critical here I'm just wondering why the decision was made to represent GJ seperately with a fantasy squad organisation.

[Fionn]

Well, seeing as it is a "fantasy" squad type by your calculations ( which just might be missing a few sources BTW) I'd have to say that the only possible reason is that everyone was high at the time of their inclusion.

That or their books showed it wasn't a fantasy squad ( remember, you may not have all the info in your books ).

[Degrees of Frost]

Regardless of the make-up of the GJ squads modelled in the game (fantasy or otherwise ) it still begs the question why they were modelled and included in the game ahead of the Royal Marines and other Allied formations given the limited "concentrations" of GJ formations in the west.

The British army had trained mountaineering units equipped with collapsible field guns and the like - though I don't think they constituted anything approaching a division.

[Fionn]

Royal Marines etc were more along the lines of "Special Forces"... I don't see the Brandenburgers being included either.

Anyways, GJ weren't all that uncommon. I remember several regimental and Bn-sized Kampfgruppe fighting in the south of Germany near the end of the war.

[Gary T]

Skimming of the intriguing topic of your ESP powers which have enabled you to glimpse my reference collection which, incidentally, is much larger than you may think.

I'd be grateful if you direct me to the sources used to come up with the GJ squad organisation so that I may add them to my collection (have they come off the microfilms at the NA?) Is this the same source used to come up with the GJ Heavy Weapons and Machine Gun Company organisations? Because if it is that must explain it. Neither of those two formations in CM is remotely like: a)the theoretical TOE for either the 1939 or 1944 Gebirgs-Division

or

The actual organisation/strength returns from 1944/45 of any of the GJ divisions I have access to (which however doesn't include 2GJD yet). These differ slightly from division to division but none comes close to that in CM.

We aren't dealing with the Volks-Gebirgs Division TOE are we? (which I don't have a copy of - but seeing as it never came into effect, barring the renaming of 1. Gebirgsdivision, it doesn't really count).

As for Royal Marines being 'special forces' off the top of my head I know for a fact that 1st Commando Brigade (45 (RM), 46 (RM) and 3 and 6 Commando's) fought as normal leg infantry while attached to 11th Armoured Division during the advance from Normandy to the Baltic. Other Commando's (RM or otherwise) may have served in the same sort of role but I'd have to check up on that.

Personally I quite like commanding troops that are referred to by their own name type (even if their capabilities are the same as regular infantry). Adds to the feel of being there.

Finally, there were probably were alot of independent Gebirgsjager battalions put into action in the latter days of the war. However like most of the formations throw together by the Germans in 1945 they were often nothing more than renamed Ausbildungs-Und-Ersatz units who bore little or no relation to the capabilites (or training) of their similarly named divisional counterparts. Actually I've just finished reading 'No Triumphant Procession' and apparently Hungarian units, being trained in Germany, were used against the British in Macrh and April 1945. Any chance we could have these represented please?

[This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Spook]

I have to concur with Gary T that the Royal Marines, British Commandos, and US Rangers should be included if their squad-level TO&E's differ enough from the existing Allied squad types like airborne units.

Both the UK & US, in 1944-45, had a nasty (almost criminal?) habit of keeping "special forces" fighting in the role of line infantry for long stretches of time. The US 2nd Rangers got sent into the Hurtgen Forest for their own turn of meatgrinding in Nov-Dec '44, as an example. And British Commandoes were used as part of the assault wave over the River Rhine in March '45.

And the Brandenburgers? Well, my reference reading on these German special forces troops is a bit limited, but have indicated that the Brandenburg troops of '44, expanded to division-size by then and still deployed on the East Front, were hardly the specialist troops of '40-'42, as East Front attrition had consumed too much of the old lot.

But this point is moot. Given the CM plethora of squad variations for the Germans, I find it's easier to find a CM German squad type that can "fit" pretty close to some historical force than for the available Allied squads.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Both the UK & US, in 1944-45, had a nasty (almost criminal?) habit of keeping "special forces" fighting in the role of line infantry for long stretches of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that was criminal but stupid. They should have disbanded them and used them to replenish NCO and subaltern losses in the infantry divisions. The next best thing was to use them as infantry. Like the Waffen-SS in Germany, these special units syphoned off a pool of potential leaders into underused outfits. And there simply were no more missions suitable for them after the invasion. So what should have happened with them? Sending them back to England to wait for some special mission would have been more criminal.

Having said all that, to come back on topic a bit, it would have been nice to see some more unit types for the allies as well. I know there was not as much variation as with the Germans, but as was pointed out here, there was some. And some of the German units seem quite stretched as well. E.g. Panzer Div. Escort Coy. How many of these were there?

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Andreas

[PoisonKitchen]

Chill out Fionn. Is it possible for you to answer a question without coming across as a jerk. I mean the guy asked a decent question and the first thing you do is start shooting off at him.

I have been following this board for a long time and I have been impressed with your knowledge of WW2 and the time that you have given to this game. But I have definately not been impressed by your manners! I mean can a person bring up a topic without being cut down by you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Well, seeing as it is a "fantasy" squad type by your calculations ( which just might be missing a few sources BTW) I'd have to say that the only possible reason is that everyone was high at the time of their inclusion.

That or their books showed it wasn't a fantasy squad ( remember, you may not have all the info in your books ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PoisonKitchen:

Chill out Fionn. Is it possible for you to answer a question without coming across as a jerk. I mean the guy asked a decent question and the first thing you do is start shooting off at him.

I have been following this board for a long time and I have been impressed with your knowledge of WW2 and the time that you have given to this game. But I have definately not been impressed by your manners! I mean can a person bring up a topic without being cut down by you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, Fionn's a big boy and take care of himself, but if I had invested as much of my time, effort, and self into a fact-based enterprise and somebody came right out of the blue to call it a "fantasy", I might take umbrage too. My umbrage might take a different form than Fionn's, but it would be there, believe me.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

if I had invested as much of my time, effort, and self into a fact-based enterprise and somebody came right out of the blue to call it a "fantasy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He still shouldn't get too upset, as it really isn't his game.

Fionn is not BTS.

Having said that, he didn't "come across a jerk". In fact

his posting was much lighter in tone than Gary's. So no-one

should be upset. Too many good threads turn into flame-wars

here. And this is a good thread. I for one would like to know

if the excellent gerbirsjägers were like they are shown in game.

[Gary T]

For Christ's sake calm down everyone. Sorry if my posts have come over a s a bit pompous they weren't supposed to.

I'm not here to start a flame war with Fionn or anyone else. I was just wondering upon what sources that the GJ was based on. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or a case of 'my sources are better than yours crap'. I just want to know what sources have been used for the TOE for the GJ as the squad one is something I've not come across yet, and the heavy companies are at complete odds with the the sources that I have (mostly Nafziger).

And Ethan, I have not 'come out of the blue' to criticise CM. Why are you assuming Fionn is right and I am wrong without knowing anything about me? I have a very deep interest in TOE's, OOB's and divisional histories of German units in order to research the German personal documents I collect. (Plug - my site is here So when someone here, or anywhere else ofr that matter, has information that I don't have I try to glean from whence it came in order to add to my reference sources.

Its not a case of who is 'better'.

[This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gary T (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Fionn]

Gees, everyone thinks I was pissed off at Gary T or something.

I was merely having a little fun. Remember, I DO have a sense of humour guys and so Gary's reference to fantasy squads just gave me the vision of Charles and Steve sitting in a room doing drugs and coming up with "fantasy squads".

Poisonkitchen,

1. Get YOURSELF a sense of humour. I made 1 joke and then merely stated that Gary's sources may not be all-inclusive.

2. Coming down on me for"shooting off at him" when I wasn't doing anything of the sort is pretty rough you know?

Poisonkitchen, YES a person can bring up a topic without being cut off by me PLUS a person can also bring up a topic and have me poke a little fun when I'm in a good mood. UNFORTUNATELY all too often people like you come along and immediately misinterpret what is just a little joke and start accusing me of ****. No wonder I often feel this forum simply isn't worth my time ( AND why I respond to FAR fewer posts than I used to just 2 months ago).

Ethan,

I take zero umbrage to Gary's use of the word fantasy. Steve and Charles did the Gebirgsjaeger OOBs and TO&Es not me. I didn't feel like giving a big long, boring answer at the time outlining why the Gebirgsjaegeren went in IMO so merely tossed out what I thought would obviously be a joke ( referring to the designers being high when they did the TO&Es). It's sad various people seem to think I can't make a joke without casting incorrect motivations on it.

Jarmo is pretty right,

IF Jarmo had come in and said "Fionn's data on such and such a tank as represented in the game is total crap. He must have been high when sending it in." I'd be upset insofar as he was attacking me and my work. What Steve and Charles did about the Gebirgs etc is THEIR work not mine and so if someone calls it fantasy then it is Steve and Charles' problem mostly.

Gary,

I wasn't belittling you or anything. I was MERELY cracking a joke. So, now I'm going to leave this thread before anyone else starts telling me I'm saying things I'm not.

Oh, and for the record to people who don't know Gary. Gary DOES know his stuff and he'd be one of maybe a dozen people on this board whom I would tell people to listen to since I would trust these people to present their honest opinions honestly and openly AND back these opinions up with common sense and RESEARCH.

In short, Gary knows what he's talking about. He doesn't post much but he's more reliable than most of the loudmouth so-called grogs around here. ( Specialities would be the sort of low-level TO&E thing he's asking about here.) I might disagree with him as to the Gebirgs squad for various reasons relating to time modelled and their historical composition at the time of their historical committment in 1945 on the Western Front but at least Gary bases his disagreement on facts etc and doesn't let ego get in the way of history ( something I truly detest when I see some people on the board rejecting research simply because it doesn't agree with their "opinion".)

Anyways, I think that sets the record straight about my opinion of Gary AND that I was just making a joke. I won't respond to this thread again after this post as it has kind of soured on me.

[Durruti]

Gary, those Nafziger OBs are something special. I got hold of some of the excellent Spanish Civil War lists for miniature games a while back. On the subject of Gebirgsjaeger battalions being used in a stop-gap role I read that 2nd (Vienna) Panzer Div in Normandy had a GJ abt. substituting as a Panzergrenadier abt.

'La Panzer Lehr Division' by Jean-Claude Perrigault has photos of 2nd PD prisoners in GJ uniform in the Lingevres area. I assume they were equipped and fought as panzergrenadiers. Have any more information? Will try and find more when I get time.

[Hakko Ichiu]

(Redacted)

Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[This message has been edited by Hakko Ichiu (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

Leaving aside Fionn visiting his perversions upon us again and the red faces of the self appointed forum police it is without fanfare that I present the product of a short and simple search. Yes, a miniscule amount of effort was required to recover the very thread where gebirgsjager were first discussed for inclusion.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000335.html

All connection with the searchonauts and their FAQless task is denied.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>UNFORTUNATELY all too often people like you come along and immediately misinterpret...and start accusing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

Yes, a miniscule amount of effort was required to recover the very thread where gebirgsjager were first discussed for inclusion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me and searching.

Why I never do it whaen I should? Beats me.

Anyway, looks like the equipment might be wrong. Or not.

Gary, do you have any data of Gebir platoon setup?

[tailz]

Still, having dedicated TOE's for the US Rangers, Royal Marines and Commando units would be great tools for Operations at the very least, where you could model the exact type of actions they were involved in during CM's time frame.

I'm no programmer/mod-maker... "I just drives'em baby, I dunno what makes'em work" (name that character!), but how difficult would it be to add such squad types to CM as an expansion/mod?

[Airborne]

I'm no programmer/mod-maker... "I just drives'em baby, I dunno what makes'em work" (name that character!), but how difficult would it be to add such squad types to CM as an expansion/mod?

[dNorwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne:

"I just drives'em baby, I dunno what makes'em work" (name that character!),

That's gotta me the driver (Gavin Macloud?) of Oddball's tank from Kellys Heroes.

---Chris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gavin was the driver, but it was Oddball (Donald Sutherland) who said this (when Telly Savalas demanded to know why he wasn't helping to fix the tank).

Can you tell where I did all MY WWII research?