GOOD BYE 3DFX!!!!!!!

[Jeff Heidman]

One interesting thing to note is that the article quoted by the Voodoo supporter specifically claims that the FSAA on the GeForce 2 is equal to the Voodoo in Direct3D, as opposed to OpneGL.

Anyone want to guess what Combat Missions uses? You get threee guesses. but only the first one counts...

Jeff Heidman

[Bruno Weiss]

"My popsicle's bigger n yer popsicle, my popsicle's bigger n yer's, my popsicle's bigger n yer popsicle and we have more flavors dan yer's..."

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[RMC]

Brand loyalty is curious thing. I loved my Riva128. It wasn't top of the line for long but it was there. It was there, baby!

[Guest dirkd1976]

Can anyone point me to a site with the information about 3dfx canceling their Voodoo6 card? I'd like to read the actual article. I tried out their website, but came up empty handed.

------------------

Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway

[Robert Mayer]

Here at Computer Games Online and Computer Games Magazine, we use a mixture of GeForce/GeForce 2 and Voodoo 5500 cards. Most of us don't care which one is in our work machines, because, they're both good. My home machine is a GeForce 2, and I love playing CM on it, but I had no trouble playing CM on my work machine with the V5, either.

My personal experience has been that I have less trouble with NVIDIA-powered cards than with 3dfx parts, but again your mileage may vary. I've always just gone with what Dell gives me in the computer I just bought, usually.

[Bruno Weiss]

Yeah, I know exactly. Brand loyalty is something of an oddity. Particularly when technological advances almost guarantee that whatever you buy today and plug into your PC, will be outdated before you can get the software installed.

Wonder though, why you never see arguments about the mouse. Poor little overlooked mouse. MY MOUSE IS BETTER N YER MOUSE! My mouse moves faster, is less shaky, and clicks better n other meeces, and my mouse has the new whoopdeedoopti gizmometer which measures each pixel's size and dimensional depth not to mention my mouse has 256 megs of RAM buffer so I can play an entire game without ever having to move it.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-14-2000).]

[LuckyShot]

Here is the latest press release from 3dfx - don't see anything about a Voodoo6 being cancelled. Rather it seems like someone made them an offer they couldn't refuse - can't really see where you could forsee the death of 3dfx from this, but maybe there is some more info we're missing?

-------------------------

Press Release 13 November, 2000 - 3dfx Licenses

4-Way SLI Technology to Quantum3D

PC Industry's highest performing 3D graphics technology to be used in advanced visual simulation systems

Las Vegas, Nev., Comdex.- November 13, 2000 - 3dfx Interactive® Inc. (NASDAQ:TDFX) announced today that it has licensed its 4-way Scanline Interleave (SLI™) technology, based on the Voodoo5™ 6000 AGP project, to Quantum3D to be incorporated into their AAlchemy™ family of PC-based systems for visual simulation and training applications. The company also announced that its 4-way SLI technology, which has achieved 43 percent better Quake 3 graphics performance over leading competitive solutions, will be available exclusively from Quantum3D, and will not be available in the retail channel.

3dfx will demonstrate its exceptional 4-way graphics performance at the Comdex/Fall 2000 trade show November 13 - 15, 2000, Las Vegas, Nev., to a select group of customers, media and industry analysts. The demonstrations will show the 4-way design's ability to display high resolution images, with superior full-scene anti-aliasing (FSAA) enabled. The 4-way SLI design is the first graphics card able to achieve greater than 60 frames per second (fps) performance in Quake 3 benchmarks at the ultimate screen resolution of 1600x1200x32-bit color.

"The raw power, ground-breaking technology and superior performance of the 4-way SLI design proved to be another perfect match for Quantum3D's visual simulation and training marketplace," said Ross Q. Smith, founder and vice president of sales and marketing at Quantum3D. "For the first time ever, visual simulation and training integrators can choose from a software compatible product family that delivers the precise amount of high fidelity performance that their applications require and their budgets can accommodate." 3dfx has a long history of leveraging its leading-edge 3D technology into the visual simulation environment with Quantum3D. Starting with 3dfx's revolutionary and award-winning Voodoo2™ and Voodoo3™ products and now with its scalable VSA-100 accelerators, Quantum3D has successfully migrated 3dfx technology into today's most demanding 3D graphics arena.

"Licensing our breakthrough 4-way SLI technology to Quantum3D is the best way to expend our engineering resources in a way that offers the best return," said Byran Longmire, vice president of the graphics business unit. "While we are sympathetic to the disappointment this may cause to a small number of our loyal gaming consumers, we are looking forward to seeing this incredible technology marketed to the visual simulation industry where visual quality is the most important attribute."

About Quantum3D, Inc.

Quantum3D, San Jose, California, develops and markets integrated interactive PC-based 3D visual computing systems, realtime 3D graphics subsystems, and related system software, that combine to deliver sustained realtime frame rates, superior graphics quality, and value. Quantum3D delivers complete 3D visual computing solutions for the visual simulation and training market and the out-of-home entertainment markets, and is the exclusive supplier of 3dfx® graphics technology into those markets. In addition, Quantum3D creates and distributes realtime 3D development software tools and products, enabling developers to fully optimize their applications to benefit from the company's visual computing systems. Visit the Quantum3D, Inc. web site at www.quantum3d.com. To contact the company call 408.361.9999, send a fax to 408.361.9980 or send e-mail to info@quantum3d.com.

About 3dfx Interactive

3dfx Interactive is a global leader in enabling the emerging age of visual communications, and the 3D multimedia revolution in personal computers and consumer products. With its patented and award-winning graphics accelerator chips, boards and software, 3dfx provides the technology to create high-impact visual experiences. The company is recognized worldwide for its ability to bring the world's finest games, educational content, interactive entertainment and media-rich business applications to life. 3dfx products are available in retail stores worldwide, and through leading PC makers including Compaq, Dell, Falcon Northwest and Micron. 3dfx has headquarters in San Jose, Calif., with engineering and manufacturing facilities in Richardson, Texas, Austin, Texas, and Juarez, Mexico. The company also operates www.3dfxgamers.com, the premier online community for Voodoo owners and gaming enthusiasts. 3dfx Interactive is available on the Web at http://www.3dfx.com. 3dfx Interactive is a registered trademark, and SLI, Voodoo2, Voodoo3 and Voodoo5 are trademarks of 3dfx Interactive. All other names may be trademarks of their respective holders. Note to Editors: Visit the 3dfx Virtual Press Room at http://www.3dfx.com/press.

[VicKevlar]

Here's more info...it is NOT going away (who's the idiot that started this thing without doing any research?)

"The high-powered four-chip graphics card will only ship for workstations in order to let 3dfx focus on its next-generation chip.

Tentatively slated to ship shortly after the Voodoo5 5500 did last May, the Voodoo5 6000 was expected to change the high-end graphics market this summer. After a long delay, 3dfx has announced that the four-chip graphics board has been licensed to Quantum3D. The card design will now fall into Quantum3D's AAlchemy line for workstation graphics. This change of plans will enable 3dfx to concentrate its limited engineering resources on delivering its next-generation graphics chip.

The Voodoo5 6000 will be a monster performer, and we had the chance to see it in action at Comdex. The graphics board integrates four parallel VSA-100 chips, each with 32MB of dedicated memory for a total of 128MB. This design excels at powering very detailed scenes at high resolution. In the Quake III Arena benchmark 3dfx ran for us, the card delivered an impressive average of 65.1 frames per second at 1600 x 1200 with maximum detail and full-scene antialiasing (FSAA) enabled. Early in its development, one of the downsides of the card was the need for an external power adapter. However, Quantum3D has now managed to solve this inconvenience in its product, and an internal power connector will suffice.

As for the future of 3dfx, the company is working to integrate the efficient tile architecture technology it received by acquiring GigaPixel earlier this year. Similar to PowerVR's approach, the new Mosaic graphics architecture will greatly increase efficiency by eliminating the overdraw that occurs in traditional designs. This overdraw forces traditional chips to do three or four times more work than necessary. 3dfx says its upcoming Mosaic designs will render FSAA and effects introduced with the new DirectX 8.0 with little effect on frame rate by processing these effects earlier in the pipeline. The next-generation 3dfx chip will not include Mosaic, but it will appear in the following generation.

3dfx also talked about its DirectX 8.0 plans. Microsoft released the new version of its graphics standard last Friday, and 3dfx has already released new drivers to support the API. Looking ahead, the company talked about increased support for features like programmable pixel shaders, vertex shaders, and vertex skinning, which Nvidia and ATI have been pushing in their current products. Other cool features that DirectX 8.0 will allow 3dfx to offer support for include the multisample buffer, which streamlines the performance of FSAA and other T-Buffer effects, and sprite points, which accelerate particle effects in explosions and similar events.

3dfx's business model is also changing. The company now produces its own products after acquiring boardmaker STB. Now it is looking into licensing its chip designs for integration into OEM and third-party products. 3dfx's long-term plans focus on licensing its technology for use in mobile, handheld, and wireless devices. In the meantime, 3dfx told GameSpot that it is committed to delivering products in a six to nine month product cycle, so we can expect that its next-generation chip will not be far off."

[crepitis]

Hey Jef,maybe the doomed 3dfx company could turn its technological know-how to inventing a decent ballot-paper counting machine.Seems like there would be a huge market for it in the good ol' "US of A"(home of democracy inc. all rights reserved.)Its a bad day when Fidel Castro has to offer to send in advisors to help with the election.(chuckle).

[Lawyer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

My GeForce 2 GTS 64 makes CM look great at 1600x1200 without the need to use FSAA.

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you read the CM game text and use the controls allright at 1600x1200?

I tried to run CM at that resolution with my Matrox G400Max. The game looked great, but the game text and individual units were too hard to see on my 19" monitor. So I switched to the Voodoo 5 for the FSAA to run at 1024x768, which is much nearer to the resolution used to maximize game design.

Have you figured out something I missed?

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lawyer:

Can you read the CM game text and use the controls allright at 1600x1200?

I tried to run CM at that resolution with my Matrox G400Max. The game looked great, but the game text and individual units were too hard to see on my 19" monitor. So I switched to the Voodoo 5 for the FSAA to run at 1024x768, which is much nearer to the resolution used to maximize game design.

Have you figured out something I missed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that I am aware of. Maybe I just have better eyes?

I have not had any trouble reading the text at that resolution, but I do not think I did anything to make it larger.

As far as the units go, you can always increase their size. I also use a 19" monitor. I love the fact that at 16x12 I can see a goodly chunk of the battlefield.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 11-14-2000).]

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

Just to let everyone know, the ATI Radeon supports T&L as well as full screen anti alliasing (FSAA) and keeps getting better as new drivers are being released.

And FSAA is over rated, why not just run in the game in a nice high rez? Because a VOODOO dies at higher rez's so you got to stick to the low rez stuff and just try to make it look better. I must T&L has some nice points though.

The nice thing is that despite benchmarks I have found my Radeon does better than my GeForce2. And any Voodoo has no chance at keeping up to either in image quality or speed. Debate that all you want but the current voodoo's are only competition for the original GeForce.

I am just letting anybody know that mey be looking at a new video card to take a peak at a nice ATI Radeon 64mb DDR.

------------------

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

[Rod]

Saw this article at Gamesdomain which brought me back to this thread which I had previously skipped. Read and judge for yourself.

http://www.gamesdomain.co.uk/news/3593.html

[Lee]

Well, gamers have in the past bought 3Dfx-based Quantum 3D cards for

use in their systems, so I see no reason why they won't do the same

thing now.

I hope 3Dfx hurries up with that new chip they are working on in

the mean time. All this intense competition in the video card market

has been great for gamers.

[jpinard]

OK, those not-so-intelligent-person's that posted that I was wrong, here are the facts:

1. Quantum is owned by 3dfx, so they did NOT get an offer they could not refuse.

2. 3dfx is closing its Juarez, Mexico plant - that should speak for itself.

3. The voodoo6 was too costly in its previous form to be even remotely affordable to home users (well over $900 per card at last count). That's 34% more than they originally projected.

4. If you're defending 3dfx, you're probably upset because you're in with a losing company. Also, citing their own propagandic press releases in this thread, does not bequethe the truth. They are always going to try and put a positive spin on negative news.

5. What goes around comes around. NVidia has always simply made cards based on Directx. They've never tried to forcefully drive everyone else out of the 3d acceleration market. 3dfx tried to do that twice. First with glide, second - by not offering their chips to board manufacturers when they bought STB to make their own cards. People were furious about this when it happened as they saw competition being forcefully edged out. Now, they're selling the plant they bought (STB). They're returning to their roots to try and sta alive. Like I said, what goes around comes around. Check this link:

http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=11142000-1982

[This message has been edited by jpinard (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Freak]

Ok thats it, I had to byte at this. Please read this very very interesting artical about microsoft, direct x, opengl, and 3d graphics in general. This article should grab your attention.

file:///Mac%20G3/Desktop%20Folder/Microsoft%20and%203D%20Graphics

Also, 3dfx had glide happening before any of this direct x stuff was a viable option as a graphics api for gaming or any other applications. Remember 3dfx was the pioneer of 3d graphics for pc's and macs for that matter. I don't get these pissing contests about video cards. Its as if your all defending you mother in some sort of argument or something. Both cards nvidia and 3dfx have their pluses and minuses, so leave it at that. Its not like CM plays horribly with a 3dfx card at this point so whats the big deal? Fsaa looks nice on the 3dfx, nvida has the speed advantage, but that is my own take of the debate. I don't think its that bad.

I just think you should give some credit to 3dfx for trying something no other company was trying at the time, and that was bringing a 3d gaming card to the market. And hey...glide looks great. (even though its old and outdated).

I don't know if that above link will work...but... I can at least give you an interesting petetion page against the real propagandic company microsoft. If you think 3dfx is trying to push its stuff on us and corner the market with its glide...think again...take a look at MS pushing Direct X over OpenGL. Pretty sad is'nt it?

heres the petition link: http://home.soneraplaza.nl/mw/prive/henk/OpenLetter/page.html

I can cut and paste the article that probably does not work if you would like. It discusses how direct x became an api. It is sad.

[This message has been edited by Freak (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Jeff Heidman]

Those bastards at Microsoft!

Imagine the arrgance of writing an API for their own operating system!

Jeff Heidman

[Freak]

Sorry Jeff...

Here is the article...

now please Jeff...if you think MS is a goodie tooshoes then you must also work for Nvidia ...(sorry had to pounce on ya.)

here it is:

Microsoft Creates the Direct3D API

In 1995 and 1996 Microsoft established a new program to support games on PCs running its Windows 95 operating system. The goal was to expand the market for PCs into the area then dominated by game consoles such as those from Nintendo and Sega.

Microsoft chose not to use the OpenGL technology it already provided in Windows NT to handle 3D graphics for games. Instead, Microsoft purchased Rendermorphics, Ltd. and acquired its 3D graphics API known as RealityLab. Microsoft reworked the device driver design for RealityLab and announced the result as a new 3D graphics API called Direct3D Immediate-Mode (Direct3D).

Leveraging Windows 95 to Promote Direct3D and Freeze OpenGL

Microsoft refused to release the software needed to support OpenGL-based games on Windows 95. In fact, for a considerable time Microsoft chose not to support OpenGL on Windows 95 at all, which made it impossible for users of OpenGL-based applications on Windows NT to run them on Windows 95. Microsoft also took the unusual step of retracting its support for MCD drivers for OpenGL, even though it had already released kits to hardware developers. As a consequence, some hardware developers were forced to recall OpenGL drivers that were already in the beta-test phase. Microsoft's actions partitioned the 3D graphicsmarket, guaranteed that OpenGL would not be widely available on high-volume PCs targeted by Windows 95, and leveraged Windows 95 to boost the overall market penetration of Direct3D.

Microsoft marketing teams began to promote the proprietary Direct3D API to games developers, hardware developers, and the trade press, while simultaneously marginalizing OpenGL. If Microsoft mentioned OpenGL at all, it was presented as a low-performance API that was suited only for certain professional computer-aided-design applications on Windows NT, while Direct3D was "mainstream'' and offered ``real-time'' performance on the much moreheavily-hyped Windows 95 operating system. (This despite the widespread use of OpenGL in high-performance applications with close technical similarities to games, such as flight simulators.) Microsoft also increased its commitment of staff to Direct3D while freezing the level of staffing for OpenGL, with the result that OpenGL development slowed relative to Direct3D.

API Wars

Silicon Graphics and many other users of OpenGL have businesses that depend on the ability to offer innovative and high-performance graphics technology. As it became clear that Microsoft intended to replace OpenGL with Direct3D, that Direct3D suffered from many technical shortcomings, and that (unlike OpenGL) Direct3D could not be extended by hardware vendors because it was controlled completely by Microsoft, Silicon Graphics decided to mount a demonstration at the 1996 Special Interest Group on Computer Graphics (SIGGRAPH) conference in New Orleans. The demonstration showed conclusively that OpenGL was at least as fast as Direct3D, thus refuting Microsoft's key marketing claim. Since OpenGL was already acknowledged (by Microsoft among others) as having more functionality than Direct3D, and potentially higher image quality than Direct3D, the demonstration precipitated an intense debate in the computer graphics and game development communities: Why was Microsoft promoting a new, less-capable API, and withholding already-existing device driver technology that could allow its customers to use the superior product?

Much of the public discussion took place in the comp.graphics.api.opengl and rec.games.programmer Usenet newsgroups, and is accessible from DejaNews. (If you choose to research this, be prepared for a great deal of reading! Consider searching for the thread titled "DirectX vs OpenGL'' in the comp.graphics.api.opengl newsgroup starting around August of the year 1996.)

Game Developers Ask for OpenGL on Equal Footing with Direct3D

As the technical and marketing issues were exposed, a strong pro-OpenGL reaction began. John Carmack of id Software, developer of the popular game Doom, stated publically that he would refuse to use Direct3D and use OpenGL instead. Chris Hecker published a comprehensive analysis of the two APIs in the April-May 1997 issue of Game Developer magazine, concluding that Microsoft should simply discontinue Direct3D and put its efforts into OpenGL.

It began to appear that Microsoft was using Direct3D to achieve market control and to limit innovation to areas that could not be used to challenge Microsoft, rather than to provide a technically superior product for its customers or to promote free competition between APIs. Two petitions were issued by game developers to Microsoft. The first, from 56 top game developers, called for Microsoft to release OpenGL MCD device drivers and other work that it had completed, but not released because it would allow OpenGL to compete with Direct3D. A second open letter to Microsoft on the same subject gathered 254 signatures initially and over 1400 by the time the letter was closed; the comments offered by some signatories are particularly interesting.

Microsoft's reply was to reiterate its old market positioning statement that Direct3D was for high-volume high-performance applications, and OpenGL was for high-precision computer-aided-design applications only. Although the petitioners made it clear that they wanted the two APIs on an equal footing, so that competition spurred innovation and so that no single party controlled access to the graphics hardware, Microsoft responded by increasing its investment in Direct3D and reducing its investment in OpenGL even further. To this author's knowledge, Microsoft never issued a press release to acknowledge the petitions.

there is more where that came from but I will leave that up to you if you want to see it.

[Jeff Heidman]

I guess that is nominally interesting, but it hardly convinces me that Microsoft has done anything that everyone has not tried to do.

I do not know (and do not really care) what the history is behind the API wars. I am sure there are those who think MS "cheated" and those who think 3dFX tried (and failed) to do the same thing with their own attempt to corner the market.

So what? It is how business is done. It gets old when you constantly hear everyone whine about Microsoft being better at being sneaky and underhanded than everyone else.

Jeff Heidman