Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Being new to the community, I have a question? Why are different tactics and playing styles considered "gamey"? Doesn't meat taste "gamey"? I need to know, please. LOL ------------------ [font color=black size=4]----------------------------------------------------------- [font color=red]"Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die."[font color=black]-The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 A brief example from the developers can be seen on Pg. 5 of the manual under "The We go Principle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 Well that is fine and dandy if you have the manual, but since I was waiting for my copy to come in the mail, well you can see my predicament... ------------------ <font color=black size=4><b>-----------------------------------------------------------</b></font> <font color=red><b>"Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die."</b><font color=black>-<i>The Crow</i></font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 A gamey tactic is one which employs unrealistic methods to achive a result. Like exploiting a bug or oversight by the game designers. If you found out that by charging enemy tanks with a crew from one of your destroyed tanks you could force them to reverse and flee(which would be a bug), using the tactic would be gamey because it not only doesn't corrospond to reality, it doesn't make any sense. In short, gamey tactics are ones that are permitted by the game engine but shouldn't be for a varity of reasons. BTW, I think you need to fix the HTML in your sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 LOL Thanks for the advice in my sig. How do you know I didn't want it that way? But seriously, am I correct in assuming that to be "gamey" is to say that this game is buggy? The example you described doesn't really happen does it? ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 To Fine and Dandy, a search here reveals many discussions around what are gamey tactics or not. It is a hard thing to define (it basically means an 'unrealistic tactic') but we usually know it when we see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 One thing to add to Pham911's definition (which is right on the money). Gamey is a relative term, in that one person might object to what you did, while another wouldn't care. Don't assume that someone is cheating just because he uses tactics in a less than realistic manner. Afterall, it is just a game ------------------ Charlie don't surf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 Clark my man, thanks for your advice on searching and all, but I prefer a more human touch or response if you will... ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Steve, we all appreciate that you would prefer a human response and it wasn't the intention to be curt (Curt's a jerk BTW, steer clear of him). However, one of the great features of this board IS the ability to search out topics. This happens to be one topic which has been discussed at GREAT length on many occassions. As has been mentioned, the definition is hard to pin down. The suggestion that you do a search was meant as a means of allowing you to see all the posts on the subject which would be more informative. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 30, 2000 Author Share Posted August 30, 2000 Sorry, it was the lack of respect that I found insulting. My name is not Fine and Dandy... But I have a couple of suggestions. If you can't post, why have a forum? And I'm not asking people to post here, just the ones that want to contribute to the conversation. A "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE", or "OH MAN THIS TOPIC AGAIN? YOU STUPID F***!" are not welcomed posting for most people... anyways... ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow [This message has been edited by Suicides-by-Steve (edited 08-30-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Steve, No, the example I described doesn't happen. It was just to illustrate the point because I couldn't think of a real example of gamey tactics that hadn't been fixed some time ago. Actually, aside from some debate on if using Jeeps for reconnosince by forcing the enemy to attack them and reveal thier position, there aren't many gamey tactics possible in CM. You're forced to make descisions and battle plans that would be pretty close to what would work in real life. And, to make it very clear(as I don't want to mislead anyone on the games stability), the game has almost no bugs. None at all, that I can think of. And I see that you fixed your sig. Looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 Thanks alot Pham 911, I'm begining to see the meaning behind the term "gamey". Well, as I read in another post along the same topic lines, my philosophy matches with the originator of that post: it's only a game, so it's entirely up to the player as of what to do. Good example with the jeeps! BTW, there's no way around that? If your troops are hidden, why would they attack, or are you assuming that the troops aren't hidden, and are therefore taking opportunity shots at the offend jeeps? (you'll have to excuse my ignorance... I just can't wait to find out about this game, so some of the questions I may ask, you'll have to bear with me...)? If that's the case- hey!, all the more power to the person who takes the time to hide all his units in an effort to foil that "tactic"... ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Yes, they'll fire at the jeep if unhidden once oppertunity presents itself. They'll also fire from hidden, or while waiting to ambush the enemy, but not all the units and not all the time. It's modeling the behavior of the soldiers who can't be sure they weren't spotted, can't be sure the enemy is going to stop far enough or turn soon enough to be a safe distance from thier position before it's too late, and that sort of stuff. In short, the uncertainty of having a platoon of green soldiers attempt to stay concealed from the enemy without firing. It's actually a pretty cool thing to have in a game, if you think about it. BTW, the debate(forget which thread offhand)is about the cost of jeeps in unit points for the setup and the loss of points from your final score(also about moral loss during the battle). Most people seemed to agree that using "recon by drawing fire" isn't gamey, but the fact that loosing cheap jeeps has little impact on your moral or end points presents a gamey problem(imagine 10 jeeps being treated as completely disposable recon vehicles by the army for each and every engagement and you'll see how odd this is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Gamey is also interpreted as ahistorical and unrealistic use of units (in addition to taking advantage of "bugs"). Two of the more frequently cited examples of gamey behavior are: 1) Scouting with bazooka teams, displaced crews, or "empty" arty spotters (many of us just withdraw crews and empty spotters from the map when they have nothing "realistic" to contribute), 2) Edge-hugging (advancing along the map edge, to reduce exposure from enemy fire on the "blank" side). Obviously, there are some gray areas. Sometimes the map edge is just the most conducive to a successful advance. Some guys do it all the time. Play people you respect, and you won't have this problem; a PBEM or two will clue you in to the personalities. Less groggy, anything-goes types can play each other without restraint. It isn't really "cheating". Different players are after different types of CM experience. But then, "gaminess" isn't really an issue for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: 2) Edge-hugging (advancing along the map edge, to reduce exposure from enemy fire on the "blank" side).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BTW, I have discovered something of a disincentive to edge hugging built right into the the game. Twice now, I've had units near the edge come under fire and break. They then run off that map edge, making themselves unavailable for the rest of the game. Not a perfect solution, I know, but something on the plus side nevertheless. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 As someone said above, the definition of gamey can vary, depending on the eye of the beholder. But for sure exploiting a bug in the AI or game engine is gamey, or more appropriatly, cheating. There are quite a few tactics that can be construed as gamey, but on of the great things about CM is that many off the classic gamey tactics have serious drawbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Twice now, I've had units near the edge come under fire and break. They then run off that map edge, making themselves unavailable for the rest of the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A while back I was playing VoT against Freyland. During the battle I watched an entire platoon of his bolt off the map edge. To this day I don't know whether it was due to my fire, or if they were trying to escape from participating in his pathetic and laughable attempt at an attack. ------------------ Charlie don't surf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Geez, how come others can get by saying 'Do a search'? The example Steve used in the manual is the unrealistic tactic of sacrificing a truck (a nonessential unit) to 'scout' ahead and expose enemy locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: Geez, how come others can get by saying 'Do a search'? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do a Search. Sometimes, one feels like typing. Sometimes, someone else does. Other times, nobody does. Then you should do a Search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 Very eloquently put... ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grunto Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 dude, i'm willing to do whatever it takes to win. i don't think you can be too gamey when you're playing a game to begin with. if you add gaminess to pbems, they become much more interesting than when the players both say, 'well they never would have done that in real life so i won't do that here.' instead i say, 'sure why not?' and thus always try to prepare in anticipation that my opponents will strive as well for that 'zest, pluck, and dash' to try and beat me through any combination of clever moves and unit/terrain/weather mismatches. probably lots of 'gamey' ( outside of the combat doctrine of a given army) things happened in real life so maybe there shouldn't be any problems with 'crazy moves' in CMBO, particularly in quick battles. i still believe there's a counter to everything in this game. for instance i think now that the antidote to the American jeep .50 is the MG42. heavy use of those MGs as screens against the jeep .50s should preclude the 'suicidal jeep .50 attacks from h-e-double-toothpicks.' andy [This message has been edited by grunto (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicides-by-Steve Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 Thanks alot chief, I figured as much... though not with as much precision would have I executed the ole "suicidal jeep" manuever, interesting. ------------------ "Childhood's over the moment you know you're going to die." -The Crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grunto: probably lots of 'gamey' ( outside of the combat doctrine of a given army) things happened in real life <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You bet your life: in Africa, Rommel used to send a truck tragging trees along roads tp make a lot of dust in order to deceive the British into thinking that a German column was on the move in a certain direction. Did the British yell "unfair" when Rommel's tank shot them in the ass while they were looking the other way? You bet! Was that gamey? You bet. When the Germans dressed soldiers in US uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge and sent them behind US lines, thus prompting a reaction out of proportion to the danger (including Eisenhower's abandoning his HQ!), was that gamey? You bet! How about the time...? Well, you get the idea... My only regret is that CM does not allow vehicles to drag trees in order to make "false" dust...In CM, the rules are the same for each player, so why all the fuss about "gamey" tactics? Some retort that such tactics are ahistorical. Gimme a break, the whole game is ahistorical with its balanced scenarios and player knowledge about the historical outcome of battles and enemy force composition. In the Delorey scenario, the US player can move up three different roads towards the German positions, and one of them is close to a map edge; according to some, sneaking up that road to catch the Germans off-balance would be gamey? Any German player who plays this scenario and does not keep open the threat to suddenly break out of the bocage on the German right by moving up this road is going to be screwed, blued, glued and tattoed, because his only chance to win is to keep the Germans off balance with threats forcing the Germans to divide their forces. Let's just play the game, and if you get slaughtered because a player sneaks up the map edge, try some gamey tactic of your own or come here and ask for advice on how to refute that. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Great post,Henri.All this fear of 'gameyness' in a game probably has some people starting an email game with the same trepidation that Seinfeld and the gang approached the 'Soup Nazi' to buy soup.If it's allowed by the game,I don't really have a problem with it. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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