multinational forces

[kain]

is it acceptable to combine units from different nations when purchasing units+equipment.choosing the best attributes to create a more custom force?

[Buckeye]

Anything is acceptable. However, some players might consider it a little gamey, especially if it's done just to optimize your forces. I don't believe multinational forces fighting battles on the scale of CM were not the norm in the European theater.

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"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mixed forces certainly weren't the norm, but they did happen sometimes. However, I am pretty sure that at CM's level of simulation this would almost always be vehicles of one nation and infantry of another. You also need to keep in mind where and when the battle is taking place. Some nationalities fought along side each other only in certain spots and times.

Steve

[Slapdragon]

One of the things than many players like is history. While the winning and loosing aspect is a lot of fun, even playing a doomed defense has a lot of interest.

In almost any game escalation begines when players choose only the toughest units, King Tigers and Comets, Panthers and JS111s facing off, when each of those tanks except the Panther was relatively rare on the battlefield. Of the 200 King Tigers made, less than 50 made it to frontline combat. For the Americans, it was historical to trade 4 tanks for 1 German Panther in all but the most elite tank units because at the same time 20 German tanks would succumb to Jabos and Arty.

Now if you are playing yourself, that of course is not matter.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 09-10-2000).]

[kain]

i did it in a scenario with two distinct forces and tactics against the common enemy.pretty fun.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Slapdragon,

True, except for those KT figures Exact figures are sitting up on a shelf, but the number was closer to 500 total production units, nearly all of which made it into some form of combat. Perhaps said "50 made it into combat" you are thinking about the ones used in the Bulge? This is about correct (47 exact I think). But KTs were encountered in Normandy through the end of the war. In fact, the first 50 production models (maybe this is what you were thinking of?), using the Porche deisgned turret, were encountered by Commonwealth forces. Most were knocked out through air attacks.

Steve

[Slapdragon]

You are correct, the book I am looking at is a 1951 Regimental History of the 67th Tank Regiment and it clearly says 200 King Tigers rolled out of the production plants and almost immediately into battle (quoting here in part an interview with Speer done in 1946 by USAE) but that "less than 50" made it to the front due to air attacks, breakdowns in the trains, and other problems. The chapter in question is on the 67th's participation in the Battle of the Bulge, and nowhere does it say that these numbers refer to entire tank production.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Of the 200 King Tigers made, less than 50 made it to combat.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More then 50 Tiger II's saw combat in WW2. Unless were discussing Normandy where s.H.Pz.Abt 503 had only 12 Tiger II's when entrained. s.H.Pz.Abt 506 with 45 Tiger II's, operated during Arnhem, s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 had 45 Tiger II's as of Dec 15, 1944 for the Ardennes offensive.

194 Tiger II were issued to units in the West alone, with another 274 sent to the Eastren Front, Waffnamt had 15 issued for testing & Ersatzheer another 13. Virtuly the entire production run was used in replacement & refiiting of the Tiger Abt's.

The Panther was also not that rare in fact it was almost as numerous as the PzKpfw IV and by March 1945 their were more PzKpfw V, then PzKpfw IV, on inventory. Ie, as of *June 10, 1944 their were 758 PzKpfw IV & 655 PzKpfw V deployed in the West. As of **Dec 15, 1944 their were 503 PzKpfw IV, & 471 PzKpfw V. As of Jan 15 1945 594 PzKpfw IV & 487 PzKpfw V, as of March 15 1945, 59 PzKpfw IV, & 152 PzKpfw V.

*See Jentz Thomas L. Panzer Truppen Vol 2 pp. 177, 202, 248.

**The PzKpfw IV numbers for Dec 15 1944 - Jan 15 1945, include Pz.IV/70V, Pz.IV 70/A, FlakpzIV, & Sturmpanzer returns.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-11-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

An interesting read, and one of the most historically unbiased internal looks at the German war machine, is Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich." On pp 416-418 is a discussion that points to why the Allies prevaled despite having inferior equipment. During the Bulge, Sepp Detriech was stalled infront of Bastogne in part because of under estimating the power of an elite American unit dug in and defending a crucial road head, but also because his most powerful tanks were blown up before he got them, he never had a full load of ammo for the tanks he had, and he could only attack at night or under clouds. Speer laments that no matter how many tanks they produced, only "one in three" reached the soldiers at the front (probably more than that made it, but it shows his frustrations).

Likewise, this effects the game in many subtle ways. Americans only rarely camoflauged their tanks. They were more scared of air attack from their own numerous and agressive fighters than they were of being seen.

[Aacooper]

I liked Speer's book too.

Dietrich also says "even the elite divisions of the SS could not effortlessly overrun the Americans. It was impossible to convince Hitler that these were tough opponents, soldiers as good as our own men."

[Aacooper]

Although strangely he's a fan of the Sherman. Speer didn't like the big heavy Tiger and Panther. He would have rather made an updated MkIV, apparently.

[Airborne]

Reading Doubler's "Closing with the Enemy" right now (excellent). During one battle (around Metz) I think, the US used British Crocodiles to assist in reducing a position. Said that the Sherman flame was not used in Europe in great numbers although portable FF units were more prevalent. This would probably be a great scenario (if not already out there.)

Edit: Don't forget about Market-Garden where the 82nd Abn fought with British Armor at Nijmegan.

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[This message has been edited by Airborne (edited 09-11-2000).]

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

An interesting read, and one of the most historically unbiased internal looks at the German war machine, is Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How "unbiased" can a book be by Speer?

Cav

[Slapdragon]

Aside from it being comical calling a Nazi unbiased, Speer really lays it out for you, and he is very critical of his own mistakes along with Germany.

Now, Speer was a dupe in some ways, he barely new about the mass killings (hence he did not swing by his neck at Nuremburg as all the other Nazis who were in the know did) but he reads pretty close to the other great history of the war, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>During the Bulge, Sepp Detriech was stalled infront of Bastogne<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be wrong on this, but I always thought the 6th ss Pz army wasn't anywhere near Bastonge during the battle of the bulge. All the stories I've read put them in the Elsenborn-Stavelot-Manhay area.

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Charlie don't surf!

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi all

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Airborne:

During one battle (around Metz) I think, the US used British Crocodiles to assist in reducing a position.

Edit: Don't forget about Market-Garden where the 82nd Abn fought with British Armor at Nijmegan.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

British Tanks and US Infantry operated in concert in Operations around town of Geilenkirchen in Nov 1944.

Units of US 333rd Inf Regt (US 84th Inf Divn) and British Shermans of Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (of 8th Armd Brigade) plus Churchill Crocodiles & AVREs from various units of 79th Armd.

Check out the excellent

'Assault On Germany The Battle For Geilenkirchen'

by Ken Ford (1989 David & Charles Military Books isbn 0715392085)

Cheers

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Sgt Steiner

Belfast

NI UK

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Aside from it being comical calling a Nazi unbiased, Speer really lays it out for you, and he is very critical of his own mistakes along with Germany.

Now, Speer was a dupe in some ways, he barely new about the mass killings (hence he did not swing by his neck at Nuremburg as all the other Nazis who were in the know did) but he reads pretty close to the other great history of the war, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Speer knew plenty. He was just one of the one who showed "remorse" at the trials. Was a rather interesting series on this weekend...

Cav

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The Panther was also not that rare in fact it was almost as numerous as the PzKpfw IV and by March 1945 their were more PzKpfw V, then PzKpfw IV, on inventory. Ie, as of *June 10, 1944 their were 758 PzKpfw IV & 655 PzKpfw V deployed in the West. As of **Dec 15, 1944 their were 503 PzKpfw IV, & 471 PzKpfw V. As of Jan 15 1945 594 PzKpfw IV & 487 PzKpfw V, as of March 15 1945, 59 PzKpfw IV, & 152 PzKpfw V.

*See Jentz Thomas L. Panzer Truppen Vol 2 pp. 177, 202, 248.

**The PzKpfw IV numbers for Dec 15 1944 - Jan 15 1945, include Pz.IV/70V, Pz.IV 70/A, FlakpzIV, & Sturmpanzer returns.

Regards, John Waters

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Look at the huge decline from January to March. From Dec 15 to Jan 15 their tank inventory actually went up. In fact, the January numbers aren't really much lower than the June ones. Then they seem to have been hit by an atom bomb.

BTW, there were a total of 492 KTs produced, with the largest number in the operational inventory (on all fronts) at one time at 226 reached in Feb '45.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

Wow. Look at the huge decline from January to March. From Dec 15 to Jan 15 their tank inventory actually went up. In fact, the January numbers aren't really much lower than the June ones. Then they seem to have been hit by an atom bomb.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More like they were hit by a Red Steamroller as they transfered everything East to try & stop the Soviets. Compare the March 15 strength report for the East to the West's: @ 603 PzKpfw IV, & 776 PzKpfw V.

And these are straight tank numbers unlike the Dec 15 - Jan - 15 numbers that included other's Ie, Pz IV/70A in the PzKpfw IV returns. Of course the actual operational numbers were lower Ie, 345, & 387 but it shows where the bulk of German armor went after the Ardennes failure.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[Airborne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

I may be wrong on this, but I always thought the 6th ss Pz army wasn't anywhere near Bastonge during the battle of the bulge. All the stories I've read put them in the Elsenborn-Stavelot-Manhay area.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct sir. The 5th Panzer Army had the Bastogne area. Hasso von Mantueffel (sp)commanding.

Ambrose makes this same error in "Band of Brothers". On one of the photo captions.

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Land Soft--Kill Quiet