Greg Scurlock Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 BTW Steve, how is the manual coming. I, like Fionn, love a good manual and have kept everyone I have owned. I'm asking as I remember you saying that was one of your responsibilities. My award for most indept and helpful currently goes to Tigers on the Prowl 2. I still pick that one up from time to time. Can't wait to see if your takes ove r the top spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risc Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 The best Manual (WW2 wargames/strategy field) I have ever seen came with game "Across the Rhine" by Microprose. The game was average but the manuals were excellent. The first manual was a game play manual, good quality paper /ink/ etc... The second was a Historical WW2 manual/book simply excellent. There was a lot of info on armored warfare, Allied/Axis armor. There was a lot of info on every big battle on the Western Front. This included OOB, small map with unit movments as well as historical documentation and some soldier short reports...oh and on top of that it also had 1 hour of WW2 historical movies (history channel perhaps ?) I was overjoyed when I got it... I hope that CM will have some good manual too (Though I understand Battlefront ain't as big as Microprose) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 May be BTS will post it soon as a *.pdf file and we who are interested in the game will down load it. Providing it is not a 10 meg file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Damn, I didn't get that 2nd manual with ATR... I believe I didn't get a first print run version though so maybe that explains it. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Just talking about the manul today, while I was sitting in the dark without power The manual will be very detailed for sure. We also have a neat little system to show how things relate to one another. Usually you see CRTs and other forms of charts with little modifiers on them. Well, as we have said over and over again, CM is way too complex for that sort of thing. What we will have instead is a little icon for each major concept in the game (LOS, Quality, Condition, Incomming fire, etc.) and how important each is. Kinda like a Consumer Reports sort of thing. Eh, don't know if that was a good explanation, but I tried NO UPLOADING THE MANUAL TO THE NET!! Might as well just put a big "pirate this game" on the CD as well Anybody that pirates CM will feel pain without the manual. No, you don't have to use the manual to play it, but the manual will provide details and insights that will prove critical. For example, it would say stuff that would make you understand that you should use the HUNT command if you are trying to move a Puma in for the kill on a Sherman, not the FAST command Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 How about emailing the manual to those of us who have preordered the game? Yeah it isn't much different then making it available for download, but I would argue that a pirate would buy one copy of the game and be able to reproduce that manual. Anyways just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Steve, now turn the knife in Fionn's back COUNTERclockwise! DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risc Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Hell yes, if you could guys send a alpha version of the manual as pdf for those who pre-ordered that would be great ! I know though I'm dreaming here... Peter PS: I would like reading manual before I get the game...actually it would be an advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Well said Doug. I can see that this Puma thing is going to go down in the lore of CM.. Oh BTW Steve, better use the other knife too *Gently crying* Ron, ANYONE who pirates CM then would get the manual in pdf format and spread it around. Trust me, if it is sent to everyone in pdf format it will be pirated. IF however the pirates have to scan the whole bloody thing in then it will stop them ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Sorry Fionn, I couldn't resist It was too good of an example to pass up since everybody would know that the manual is going to contain some vital info. I guess this is the thing about CM. If you want to play it you don't need to read the manual at all. If you are a good wargamer you should also be able to do quite well. But to really get in and out of sticky situations you will likely want to know more detail. For example (don't shudder Fionn, this isn't about you ) someone might use the Withdraw command all the time not understanding that it really flips his units out. A player that uses this order in ways it wasn't intended will have lots of unhappy campers running back to friendly lines Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikeman Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Steve-"If you want to play it you don't need the manual at all." That comment makes me a little bit uneasy. Reassure me that the basics of the interface, etc. will be covered in the manual. I don't like to have to figure games out before I can start thinking strategy and tactics. Stuff like, "Oh look, I can right click on that for more info", or "How do I get back to the main menu?". "Thats cool, F4 gives you a strategic map, and check out F5. What is it? Oh, I see. You can't autocroll if you're not in full screen mode." You know what I mean. It's so much easier to spend a little time with the manual, then jump right in. I just downloaded WDK yesterday with NO INSTRUCTIONS!! Sure it can be figured out, but I want to playtest it, not figure out the interface. Maybe I'm just impatient or stupid or both. Nobody else is complaining. They're just happy to have the demo. I guess I'm just a little worried that you guys who have been playing this game for a year now might take some of the simpler things for granted and omit them from the manual. It would be an easy thing to do. Speaking of simple things, how do I get my posts to begin a new line when I want. Compare my posts to others. Mine are a mess! And how come my computer won't work after I click on SHUT DOWN? Mikeman out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Mikeman, I think you're coming at it from the wrong side. What Steve means is that the interface is SO simple you can understand it all without a manual. Doesn't mean it won't be explained in a manual though of course . To put it in perspective neither Martin or I have any explanations but we figured it all out very quickly. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 What Fionn said is what I meant. Also note that we gave Fionn and Martin only the most BASIC instructions back in JUNE! We have obviously done a lot of Q&A via email, but this is to get that edge I spoke of. We have never received questions from these guys like "how do a make a unit move" or "how can I target something" or "how do I get the turn to end". The WDK Demo should have had a readme file that explained the basics. If not, perhaps it was accidentally left out Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikeman Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 I hereby volunteer to proofread the Manual for spelling, punctuation, and most of all clarity. Of course that means I'll have to have a copy of the game too. BTW, one of the text files in the WDK demo speaks of a "ravished planet". Shouldn't that be "ravaged"? See, I'm good. I'll be standing by the fax waiting for the manual. Don't forget I'll need the game too! Mikeman out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Yes, Mike, but I really don't think they can fax the game to you DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikeman Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 Why not? I've got a whole stack of CDs in the paper tray. OK, enough nonsense. Someone might have an intelligent contribution to make to this thread. Mikeman out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted September 22, 1999 Share Posted September 22, 1999 Fionn, Once again, if someone is going to pirate CM, they will... It doesn't take long to reproduce any piece of documentation now a days... Right now at my office, one person scans between 500-1000 checks a week and indexes them... A professional pirate wouldn't blink twice at having to reproduce a manual... It isn't a problem... With this in mind, giving the reason that people will pirate the game because they have the manual in a pdf format doesn't hold water... I still don't see why Steve couldn't "email" manuals out even in an alpha format for those who are requesting it and have preordered (the cost to do so would be only in the time to create and run a query in the database system that Battlefront is using to keep those preorders)... Those people who pirate the games out there are not stopped by holding an electronic form of a manual... Pirating will always be out there, just like shoplifting and other forms of crime... I don't support pirating and in fact I pay for all the programs that I use (including Winzip and RealPlayer)... I always accept answers like "I just don't want to!"; but I will never accept an answer that doesn't hold any truth and "We don't want to send a pdf format manual out because we don't want to make it any easier for someone to pirate our game.." isn't acceptable... PS. Just a little friendly debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 22, 1999 Share Posted September 22, 1999 Ron, I got interested in the concepts of piracy a few months ago and did some research into it. I visited innumerable REAL hacker and pirate sites (and not just the pseudo sites set up to catch surfers who want to get a game but get conned) as part of my little investigation into that subculture. I did not download any games since I disagree with piracy BUT I sure checked them all out. Not a SINGLE game had an accompanying scanned manual. Pirates aren't interested in putting out the best playable versions of the game. They're there to get a hacked version out FIRST. Respect goes to a hacker who can put up a hacked version the day of or the day after release. PDFs take a long time, would delay the upload and, thus, are unknown to that culture (in the main). It takes a long time to scan a manual and create a pdf and pirates simply don't do that. They haven't done so for West Front, Simcity3000 and any and all other war and strategy games I found available. What you are saying is, quite simply, wrong. Go check out the sites for yourself and you will realise they don't make pdfs of manuals ever. I personally object to you labelling my answer as not "holding any truth". I think you should be MUCH more careful before throwing such phrases around. Some of us put a lot of stock and effort in ensuring our integrity and don't like spurious asides being cast at it. What I said DOES hold truth. I can't be held responsible if you don't know enough about the world of pirating to realise that though. As for BTS sending out alphas of the manual.. If BTS did so they'd probably be in Word format since that's the most common format and the instant they are sent out to people in such a manner someone will pass it on to a friend for that friend to "get interested" in CM. From there it would be passed on some more and the end result would be that it would eventually be uploaded to the net. It would be inevitable. I don't think BTS (or I) would hold that sending out the manual makes it easier to pirate the game CD BUT it would make the uploading of the manual to the net inevitable. IF CM is pirated and posted to the net without the manual many of the people who see it won't download it BUT if it is posted with a manual then there WILL be a much larger knock-on decrease in sales. That's reality based on what I found when I delved into this several months ago. Whether you accept it or not it is based in the truth and accurate insofar as my research into those groups was conducted. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 22, 1999 Share Posted September 22, 1999 Ron, the easier you make something to pirate, the more likely it will be. Very few hackers/pirates would take the time to scan a manual, but if it was there in PDF format, it takes them absolutely no time or effort to make it available to others. Therefore we are not going to make the manual available in electronic format. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted September 22, 1999 Share Posted September 22, 1999 Fionn, I think we are crossed on a fine point... You are right, I could have phrased my comment better... You are right about my original comment and I am wrong... I apologize to you and anyone who took any offense to the "doesn't hold truth" comment... I should have phrased it along the lines of "we are not going to provide a pdf (or whatever format) manual because it will CAUSE piracy..." --- Which I know BTS has never said this, but you implied this... Anyways what got my response was the following quote "IF however the pirates have to scan the whole bloody thing in then it will stop them"... If you were using sarcasm great, but I was tired when I read it and took it as a statement of fact at the time I read it (maybe I should sleep more and spend less time reading the boards at night) In your response to my comments you actually point out this statement to be false with the following quote... "It takes a long time to scan a manual and create a pdf and pirates simply don't do that. They haven't done so for West Front, Simcity3000 and any and all other war and strategy games I found available." You just pointed out that a pirate outfit will pirate with or without a manual... Once again if you were being sarcastic with your above quote I am really in the wrong and I owe you a big apology... You are right, I don't spend time looking into piracy... I don't support it and I am not interested in it... If Combat Mission is a game that someone wants to pirate they will; with or without a manual... end debate... I understand BTS's reseveration about providing an electronic form of the manual and that is acceptable... I just always try to push people to think beyond the box... BTS is a group that is already past the box with what they are doing and I applaud that... Once again, please don't take offense to my comments, they are not meant to offend anyone... I respect you and everyone around this board... You all come across very dedicated and knowledgable... Keep up the good work gentlemen, there are a lot of eager people waiting for your product, and I am one of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 23, 1999 Share Posted September 23, 1999 Hi Ron, Although games will be pirated with or without a manual, we see no reason to be kind and provide them one to go along with the game. When one of these vampires pirates CM they will do so without the benefit of a quick and easy to steal manual. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 23, 1999 Share Posted September 23, 1999 I was just thinking... Since all sales are going through Battlefront, people that would buy a hacked version of CM would also lose the benefit of coming here to this message board, unless they want to explain how they got THEIR CD. "Got it from a friend" might for work some, but not for hundreds... Frankly, they lose so much by saving a few bucks that I seriously doubt if it is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Meier Posted September 23, 1999 Share Posted September 23, 1999 Beating a dead horse... Steve, I understand where you all are coming from.. That is cool.. It just sucks that the many must suffer for the few.. It happens all the time in life.. Once again, keep up the good work and stay outside the box; it seems that is where BTS shines.. Thanks for your honest answers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted September 23, 1999 Share Posted September 23, 1999 Steeve, I wood allso lyke to voluunteeer my serveceez as a mannuall proofreeder. Seriously, Steve my job involves much proofreading (tax lawyer--ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz) and if you need some assistance I would be glad to help. I proofread the CC3 manual. I was not responsible for the content however. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts