Perceived problem with "bullet magnet bunkers"

[Anthony P.]

Yeah, that's definitely the first mission. Think Ecoqueneuville that you mentioned might be the later mission from RtM that I was mentioning, the one with glider infantry, which also featured wooden bunkers that I found could be suppressed by MG fire. So as far as I'm concerned, both missions are relevant.

[landser]

.Ecoqueneuville was the second mission (unless playing the revised campaign). It was an attack on a town, and the best way to describe it was it had a crossroads dead ahead of your starting positions with a well sited ATG firing down that road after it turns 90 degrees to the left. To the left were hedgerow-enclosed fields. Bah, that could be any of a dozen scenarios. Found a screen of the map. This battle also features 2/8 Infantry, not glider troops, and had no bunkers.

http://blog-imgs-60.fc2.com/o/t/m/otmtt/CMBN2_15.jpg

Hell in the Hedgerows might be the one you're referring to as it featured glider troops and several bunkers along the back edge of the map.

Edited April 14, 2016 by landser

[Anthony P.]

Ah, yeah. Glider troops, an initial line that's lightly defended, followed by the proper defence on a road across a small stream, at the end of the map.

[landser]

Yes that's Hell in the Hedgerows. Just played this one a week or so back, and those bunkers were difficult as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

In any case, I don't argue that it should not be possible to shoot at bunkers, but that it should be up to the player to give the targeting order. I believe most infantry teams should prioritise staying out of sight from bunkers at ranges where they can't do anything to them anyway.

Exactly. +1

Michael

Edited April 14, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

On 4/12/2016 at 2:53 PM, landser said:

I've been playing a number of campaigns, and have come across bunkers a few times. This is just more anecdotal evidence of my experience.

-- In one of the very early missions in Road to Montebourg you have roughly two paratroop companies that need to cross open ground and take entrenched positions held by maybe 2 platoons of Germans with a MG42 bunker and mines on the right. The name might have been Ecoqueneuville , but I can't recall with certainty. I was able to suppress the bunker and eventually cause moderate casualties using long range fire from tripod mounted M1917s. These guns were set up near the start positions, probably 300 meters and were effective, achieving many penetrations. So much so that I believe the crew abandoned the bunker before our close assault.

--  Later in RtM, in the mission Hell in the Hedgerows there is a line at the back of the map with several bunkers that withstood over 30 minutes of continuous small arms and .30 cal MG fire with a total of 2 casualties, one in each of two bunkers and at no time noticed any level of suppression. Unable to overcome any of these bunkers with the weapons at hand I eventually took a minor defeat as it would have been too costly to assault and I felt the need to preserve the troops for subsequent missions.

Not much can be learned from what I am writing. However, in each case it was the same type of bunker (wood), same type of troop, same weapons, same range, same version of CM (3.11). But in the former case the fire was very effective, and in the latter, not at all. I had concluded that perhaps it had something to do with the angle the fire was coming in on. For example if the shooter is slightly above, slightly below or level with the firing aperture of the bunker does it make a difference?

Just finished Hell in the Hedgerows. My thoughts were the equivalent of banging my head repeatedly against a solid metal wall. I moved up 2 platoons on the left flank (the one with the covered approach close to the stream). I had 2 HMGs, 81mm mortars, 2 LMGs targeting the 2 bunkers on the left flank. The HMGs fired continuously for 30 minutes. The 81 mortars ran out of ammunition. I had the 2 platoons open up on the far left bunker. I didn't manage a single casualty and I don't recall majorly suppressing either bunker. I tried a medium 75mm pack howitzer smoke mission. The wind just blew it away and it was ineffective to try and move anything up. Casualties kept mounting, My troops were getting rattled left and right. And I hit cease fire suffering a minor defeat. Tactic wise I did all that I could think of doing. The rest of the 2 companies I had spread out the length of the bocage line  closest to the stream on the US side. The enemy HGs I suppressed and damaged with mortar support. But I couldn't get closer than 200m to any of the bunkers without getting shot all to ****. The barbed wire on the left flank denied any attempt to try and assault that route. The middle was a kill zone because I couldn't suppress or knock out any of the 3 bunkers. The right flank was covered by the far right bunker. It was frustrating as hell. I enjoy a challenge but it felt like I had zero chance in achieving any type of victory with this mission.

[Bulletpoint]

6 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

I enjoy a challenge but it felt like I had zero chance in achieving any type of victory with this mission.

It's not an enjoyable mission, at least I never heard anyone say it was. And I believe it's not meant to be won, so I recommend you just cut your losses and move on.

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

1 minute ago, Bulletpoint said:

It's not an enjoyable mission, at least I never heard anyone say it was. And I believe it's not meant to be won, so I recommend you just cut your losses and move on.

No choice at this point but it just pissed me off that I couldn't put a dent in those bunkers. Artillery, direct fire mortars, 2 platoons firing, 2 HMGs, 2 LMGs all pouring fire on these things and I kept seeing "Penetration" over and over but it did nothing. No casualties and as far as I could tell really not suppressing the gunners inside.

[Bulletpoint]

17 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

No choice at this point but it just pissed me off that I couldn't put a dent in those bunkers. Artillery, direct fire mortars,

I had many of the same frustrations before, so I'll give you a couple of useful tips from experience.

Wooden bunkers are invulnerable to artillery up to 105mm. Not just "difficult to take out", but completely invulnerable, even to any number of direct hits you can put on them. So don't waste your artillery.

17 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

2 HMGs, 2 LMGs all pouring fire on these things and I kept seeing "Penetration" over and over but it did nothing.

Bunkers are not invulnerable to bullets, but they are extremely tough, especially at range. I believe you need to get closer than 200m and probably more like closer than 100m. and then put massive amounts of small arms fire on them. However:

17 minutes ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

No casualties and as far as I could tell really not suppressing the gunners inside.

Bunkers _can_ be suppressed, but here's the trick: You won't see it. Because the soldiers will seem to stay upright no matter how suppressed they really are. I have been able to suppress bunkers to the point where they stop shooting back, and at that point you could theoretically move up a bazooka team. But usually there will be other bunkers supporting the first one, and usually you won't have the amount of firepower to suppress more than one at a time.

Suppressing won't win you Hell in the Hedgerows as far as I can tell, because there are too many bunkers, you have too few troops, and there's not enough sufficient cover at a close enough range to do it.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

26 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I had many of the same frustrations before, so I'll give you a couple of useful tips from experience.

Wooden bunkers are invulnerable to artillery up to 105mm. Not just "difficult to take out", but completely invulnerable, even to any number of direct hits you can put on them. So don't waste your artillery.

Bunkers are not invulnerable to bullets, but they are extremely tough, especially at range. I believe you need to get closer than 200m and probably more like closer than 100m. and then put massive amounts of small arms fire on them. However:

Bunkers _can_ be suppressed, but here's the trick: You won't see it. Because the soldiers will seem to stay upright no matter how suppressed they really are. I have been able to suppress bunkers to the point where they stop shooting back, and at that point you could theoretically move up a bazooka team. But usually there will be other bunkers supporting the first one, and usually you won't have the amount of firepower to suppress more than one at a time.

Suppressing won't win you Hell in the Hedgerows as far as I can tell, because there are too many bunkers, you have too few troops, and there's not enough sufficient cover at a close enough range to do it.

Thanks for the tips. I've taken my minor defeat and moving on. From searching the forums Paper Tiger is the author and maybe he'll see the issue with the bunkers and possibly tweak this mission. Or maybe because they historically lost then it should be the same here. If I could get closer to 200m to the damn things I'd use everything I have but there's no cover anywhere less than that range. Artillery smoke mission is a waste of ammo. I may at some point try and get those HMGs to the last hedgerow on the Allied side before the creek. The only issue is the massive amounts of artillery the Germans have. From my last playthrough I had to move squads back 3-4 times because of German artillery missions. Not enough time, not enough firepower, not enough luck on my part I guess.

[Anthony P.]

I would definitely not call it un-winnable, and I call quite a few missions that to be honest. My experience with that mission is that it's somewhat grittier than your average mission, but no doubt possible to win. The name of the game is massive fire superiority. Last time I played it I'd set up my MG teams in buildings further back, and placed the platoons along the long hedgerow opposed to the German line. MGs set to fire at individual bunkers, the squads with arcs set all along the German line to just shoot anyone they could get their eyes on, and calling in fire missions to help suppress the German infantry out in the open. Eventually the Germans were suppressed or dead enough that I could assault on the right flank with a platoon split up into teams without sustaining more than 5 or so casualties crossing the open ground.