Soviet smoke grenades

[Denis1973]

To be short - soviet infantry must own it. Battlefront, I hope this can happen in earliest patch 

Here is link to proof it existence and availability to frontline troops:

http://weaponland.ru/board/ruchnaja_dymovaja_granata_rdg/24-1-0-142

While picture at English,  Russian text states that RDG (hand smoke grenade) was created in 1942 and produced in schedule:

1942 - 959.000 grenades

1943 - 1.520.000

1944 - 3.380.000

1945 - 1.012.000 (think this figure before 1st May)

 

[Michael Emrys]

Everybody used smoke grenades, mostly for marking or signaling. Are you claiming that the Soviets used them for tactical obscuration as a standard operating procedure?

Michael

[Denis1973]

Are you claiming that the Soviets used them for tactical obscuration as a standard operating procedure?

Definitely yes. From late 1942 onwards. 

RDG was used to blind enemy fireslits, to obscure bailed-off crews and during river crossing because RDG was float-able. RDG can provide a small (8-10 m) cloud for 1-1,5 minutes. 

Here is:

https://yadi.sk/i/yEU6-Ogqpw23r

instruction of November 1942 of using smoke by infantry (of course, in Russian).

So this is not target marker, or signalling device.  

[Blazing 88's]

To be short - soviet infantry must own it. Battlefront, I hope this can happen in earliest patch 

Here is link to proof it existence and availability to frontline troops:

http://weaponland.ru/board/ruchnaja_dymovaja_granata_rdg/24-1-0-142

While picture at English,  Russian text states that RDG (hand smoke grenade) was created in 1942 and produced in schedule:

1942 - 959.000 grenades

1943 - 1.520.000

1944 - 3.380.000

1945 - 1.012.000 (think this figure before 1st May)

 

I wouldn't know as I only play German units, but I think every unit can pop smoke.  I assume you want to be able to chuck'em farther?  If that is your wish, as a German unit only player (for the most part) I would want the same function for German units as well, just to keep it a fair game. 

[Denis1973]

I wouldn't know as I only play German units, but I think every unit can pop smoke. 

Unfortunately NOT A SINGLE soviet infantry unit can use smoke . This is not right even in terms of fair play, not speak about reality. At least soviet sappers (and HQ units) have and used smoke grenades to blind the enemy.  

[simon21]

It's not supposed to be fair.  It's a supposed to be a simulation.  I'm sure you will get an answer on this topic given the research.  

[Denis1973]

I'm speak about the very same thing - the simulation. If it supposed to be close to real life, the russian smoke grenades did exist and was used by soviet infantry. So available documents are proofs that it was the case IRL. But not the game.

[Michael Emrys]

I'm speak about the very same thing - the simulation. If it supposed to be close to real life, the russian smoke grenades did exist and was used by soviet infantry. So available documents are proofs that it was the case IRL. But not the game.

Yeah, I get that and I agree that there is a strong case for their inclusion. But before I would want to see them given to and used by Soviet forces, I would want to see equally serious research on similar usage in other armies. And for the same reason of accurately portraying reality and not just for play balance—which is better achieved in other ways.

Michael

[Denis1973]

Sorry, but I can't catch the purpose of research. German infantry have smoke grenades IRL - they have it in game. Same case for American and British infantry. Soviet infantry have smoke grenades IRL but not have it in the game. This must be corrected, isn't it?  

[simon21]

The game has to also reflect doctrine.  You need to find references as to the smoke grenades being used by soldiers in the same way and as frequently as they were being used in the armies that do have them in the game currently.  It's all very well for soviet soldiers to have smoke grenades, but if they didn't commonly use them, then including them would be unrealistic.  

There were a lot of technologies that armies in the field *had* that they barely used for reasons of doctrine.

Russians were not famous for using smoke.  Germans were very big on it.  The use of smoke in WWII was also a lot less common than in modern war.

CM2 isn't just a sandbox like Men of War.  

Most of the links I've found suggest that they had the grenades, but they didn't see much use.  Infantry smoke grenades overall didn't see much use in WWII.  

Edited March 10, 2016 by simon21

[Denis1973]

1. Soviet doctrine is not based on drunk human waves advancing without any cover. Just like all other armies.

2. I can provide some examples of using smoke to cover the advance, but you always can say "this is unusual thing" and deny it.

3. Not all units, of course, must own smoke grenades.  Tankodesantniki is one of examples. But sappers was equipped with smoke. So the case for "line infantry".

4. In 1941-45 soviet industry have produced 6,870,000 smoke grenades. 

For Germany, from http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/handgranaten.htm , figure is about 9,150,000. Not a very big difference. 

5

Infantry smoke grenades overall didn't see much use in WWII. .

But both side have used it. And no reason to take it away from soviet troops only.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

I think the question is were the smoke grenades allocated to troops though.  Thousands of chemical weapons shells were produced during the war, and yet not deployed.  While this is an extreme example the simple presence of smoke grenades may not mean they made it to rifle squads for instance.  It might be they were reserved for Company leadership only and doled out accordingly before the battle, or Soviet smoke grenades were intended chiefly for vehicle crews or any other such outcome.  

If they're not included for the Soviets, I'd like to see some documentation for how the Soviets did, or did not issue smoke grenades because that might just place it in the proper context, or alternately mean that there really ought to be smoke grenades for Soviet troops.  

[simon21]

But both side have used it. And no reason to take it away from soviet troops only.

It's about usage.  If the troops didn't use them often, then their presence can be somewhat discounted in this approximation.  There are other nationalities in other CM2 titles that also don't have the ability to use smoke grenades.  I know a lot of American squads don't have them.  A developer will eventually get here though and give you a proper answer as to why they made this decision.  

Edited March 10, 2016 by simon21

[LukeFF]

What's interesting is that, in the days of CMx1, BFC never included them for any nation because - according to them - they were used mainly for signaling. Apparently, between then and now, new evidence surfaced that was sufficient to change their minds on including it.

[Michael Emrys]

I know a lot of American squads don't have them. 

Have you seen any American squads that have them? I'm asking about vanilla infantry and even armored infantry, but not engineers or airborne (or scouts or breaching teams). I've never seen them, but then I wasn't looking too hard.

Michael

[Denis1973]

Have you seen any American squads that have them? I'm asking about vanilla infantry and even armored infantry

My in-game experience told that every US-squad can execute "smoke" command at least once. If it divided to fireteams, only that with squad commander can use smoke.

2simon21

It's about usage.  If the troops didn't use them often, then their presence can be somewhat discounted in this approximation. 

 Just an example. US troops rarely seen riding tanks. But they allowed to do so in Final Blitzkrieg. This is for tactic flexibility purposes, I believe. So why don't do this (I mean smoke) for russians?   

2panzersaurkrautwerfer

Smoke grenades goes to sappers - this is 100%. And they used it. And a tank crews too. Line infantry doesn't have a lot of them, but regulations (look my link) and battle examples prove that this happened. Especially in 1944-45, with grooving experience of soviet troops.    

[MOS:96B2P]

Have you seen any American squads that have them? <Snip> 

I think all the US infantry squads of a US infantry battalion are able Pop Smoke once.  If you make an Assault Team split, as the first split, they will have the smoke.  Also Platoon HQs can Pop Smoke. 

[Michael Emrys]

I think all the US infantry squads of a US infantry battalion are able Pop Smoke once.  If you make an Assault Team split, as the first split, they will have the smoke.  Also Platoon HQs can Pop Smoke. 

Thank you. I will be on the lookout for that and may use it in the future.

Michael

[JasonC]

They had them, issued them, used them, and staff studied and reported on their effectiveness, as early as the first winter of the war.  There is a chapter in one of Glantz's books based on Soviet staff studies on that period on the effectiveness of smoke.

What they actually found, though, was that smoke was most effective when used on a large scale in space and especially in time, and in favorable weather conditions.  They note its usefulness in forcing river crossings in particular.  They report plenty of tactical failures when it wasn't used in sufficient mass and duration, or in unfavorable conditions of wind and weather. Large scale meant dedicated smoke generators and the like, not just a short smoke fire mission by regular artillery.

The tactical smoke grenade itself is reported as effective and its primary purpose is against enemy ranged fire.  In other words, not used on the enemy to blind him, but directly in front of a pinned infantry unit to get enemy long ranged fire off of them and allow then to get back to safety or cover.  It isn't explained at length why this is particular to long ranged enemy fire, but it is obvious enough.  At short engagement ranges against a numerous enemy, fire comes from too wide an arc for it to be effective.  But when it is a matter of a single enemy MG 800 yards away, one smoke grenade will break their LOS and let the pinned down men move.

Here is a google books link to the Glantz item -

https://books.google.com/books?id=SVHYAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=soviet+infantry+smoke&source=bl&ots=u4U_m4e9Na&sig=sFaLXW-sgPDy0qaEXiuEJ-7nEIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-ucHpmL7LAhVU-WMKHYVmBDgQ6AEISjAM#v=onepage&q=soviet infantry smoke&f=false

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by JasonC

[76mm]

This book:

Panzer Destroyer

describes extensive use of smoke grenades by Soviet assault guns.

[Amizaur]

I've read lot's of Russian tanker's memoirs. Very often they mentioned using smoke grenades to either hide their tank from the enemy if they had to stop in the open field  (for example a track broken while attacking trough an open field under AT fire - first thing to do was to throw a smoke grenade on the tank (to pretend it's on fire) or in front of it (in a way that the smoke would at least partially mask the tank from the enemy). Often Germans would buy that and stop shooting at it, as there was many other advancing tanks to fire at).

Once I've read about firing a smoke grenade INSIDE the tank (in hopeless situation - single tank damaged and immobilised in the open under enemy fire) so the smoke was emited trough open hatches, then withstanding the smoke laying on the floor untill the grenade burned out. It worked. They then stayed in the damaged (presumed dead) tank untill next assault started and other Russian tanks arrived. 

So at least the Russian tankers used smoke grenades a lot, they were very important to them.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Amizaur