Max units in play

[Kinophile]

This possibly belongs more in the Maps & Mods section...

Anyway, has anyone pushed the game engine to its limit in terms of rendering/calculating the maximum number of units possible in a single battle?

I'm working up a full-on, brigade+ urban scenario, with RUS attempting to conquer a major UKR city. I'm aiming to push the unit count to the max possible and still be playable.

The idea is to stage it in waves over the 2 hour max time limit, with each wave a battalion or more in scale. Heavy air support and arty from both sides.

 

Where I'm coming from is that CMBS seems to model, or at least the Campaign favours, a more limited view of a possible Nato-RUS conflict than I do. I personally suspect that if it ever did get to that point, that Russia (under whatever alternating puppet Putin has his hand inside) would go all-in. No pissing about with battalion skirmishes, but full, divisional scale assaults, with the UKR armed forces fighting tooth & nail for the very existence of their country. Modern weaponry is so lethal, so quickly, to so many that battles could be decided quite quickly.

This could be viewed as the apex of the climatic battle that decides the war - a near total RUS commitment to knock UKR out of the war in one bloody, vicious day, with Kiev scrambling to defend.

 

So, anyone? Unit count limits on the engine?

[DougPhresh]

Well, even outside of the engine, when you're talking Brigade-Level forces, there are a lot of formations and systems that aren't modeled.

A Russian brigade has, to wit:

Signal Battalion
- HQ
- 2 x Signal Companies

Rocket Launcher battalion
- HQ
- 3 x MLRS Batteries: 6 x BM21

Air defence missile battalion
- HQ
- 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

Air defence missile - artillery battalion
- HQ
- 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
- 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
- 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14

NBC Defence Company

Engineer Battalion
- HQ
- Engineer sapper company
- Engineer construction company
- Engineer technical company
- Pontoon bridge company

Maintenance battalion
- HQ
- Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
- Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
- Ordnance/Weapons Maintenance Company
- Electronic Maintenance company
- Combat Recovery Company

Supply battalion
- HQ
- 3 x Transport Companies
- Support Company
Medical company

They just aren't factored in. Look at engineers for example. They are in the game but they don't do more than blast and clear mines. Their brigade-level functions aren't modeled.

[A Canadian Cat]

 No pissing about with battalion skirmishes, but full, divisional scale assaults, 

Well just because a scenario is battalion sized does not mean it cannot be part of a division attack. But that is not what you are asking. Honestly I think your desire would be better served with a campaign.

So, anyone? Unit count limits on the engine?

One of the posters here @sfhand created a multi battalion battle over a large map. We learned two things.

One, the limits are very much based on the machine capabilities (a top end machine will stay playble with more forces than a less capable one).

Two, there was a point where orders started being ignored. We hit it with something like six batalions on the map. It was reported as a bug and so will likely get looked at. The issue was more about number of orders than forces but obviously more forces means more orders.

Oh bonus point with that many units giving orders can be very tedious. Uber huge battles will have very few people interested.

[Kieme(ITA)]

All CM games are designed with a given force size in mind. Terrain size, control capabilities, unit compositions, are all structured in order to enforce and make possible to control forces of that given size (or better, from 1 single unit up to that size).

You could field more units of any kind, but that wouldn't mean you could actually manage them as well as you would with less.

The concept is that you might have a small map, with a platoon to control, and that platoon is part of a bigger force that fights on nearby locations commanded by other officers. Extend that frame and you can give the player a company size force, but the concept is Always the same, as IanL pointed out, the force you control does not represent an entire army or front, it's just part of it. CM games right now allow for a perfect fit up to battalion level forces in my opinion. Anything larger becomes harder to control.

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[slysniper]

Bigger is not always better. There is always a limit to when something starts to go bad.

But time and time again, we get players that want to push the limits of where this game should go.

 

Good luck, but I doubt you will get what you are hoping for trying for that size of battle. (that's if it even works at all.)

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

I've always taken my corner of the battlefield to simply be where X Company meets C Battalion as part of the clash between various Brigades and Divisions.  

In terms of enjoyment frankly I have a hard time really getting into much above Battalion minus formations (so 2-3 companies at most), while really preferring a company or so to command.  The AI just isn't up simulating all the subordinate leaders between various levels (no AI is really) and while finding good firing positions for a dozen "units" (squad/AFVs) is not so bad, figuring out how to squish in 40+ of same wears out my interest quickly.  

From how it sounds, mechanically speaking the "teeth" elements of a Brigade seem within reason to simulate though. 

[Kieme(ITA)]

To get more units working (like administrating several battalions), would require a re-scale of the entire management of units within the game, like a tactical AI which takes control of an entire platoon and manages it in the parts of vehicles/infantry squad/teams, as fit by general orders and/or terrain.

The game would change scope.

 

You can repeat the above over and over up to the commander in chief level, but it's just another game.

[Kinophile]

Thanks for all the feed back.

To clarify, the intention is NOT to model a division in its OOB entirety, but to play a much larger battle than is normally set up. Maintenance/supply companies are irrelevant for my purposes.

Perhaps, full Brigade is a more accurate (and achievable) aim.

 

[BTR]

As of now, "huge" battle point setup will support around 2~3 lower quality BTG's per side with or without some higher level support. I never managed to load that past 83%, but I shudder at the "fun" that scale would bring.  

Edited December 30, 2015 by BTR

[Kinophile]

I'm working towards the idea of doing this as waves - ie, 1 Batt per wave, with the briefing making it clear that casualties of a certain percentage per wave are to be avoided (with associate points reduction, somehow).