Katyusha ?

[borg]

I'm not sure if I'm

Semi-blind - are there katyusha @ the current CMRT build ? Y/N please be gentle in your replies. I know the answer may be staring in my face.

[Taranis]

Hi,

Yes, there are Katyusha, but they're not named liked this.

 

In fact, "Katyusha" is somewhat a generic name for Russian MLRS. There is lots of variant (different trucks, different rockets)

 

So for Katyusha in CMRT, you can take the light, medium and heavy rockets.

 

You've got :

   - 82mm :BM-8-24 (24 tubes), BM-8-36 (36 tubes), BM-8-48 (48 tubes) [LIGHT]

   - 132mm BM-13-16 (16 tubes)  [MEDIUM]

   - 300mm BM-31-12 (12 tubes), M-30-4 (4 tubes) [HEAVY]

 

AFAIK, the 82mm rocket was the more common, so it's often this one we think of.

You can find more information on the manual.

PS: soviets named those units, "Guards Mortar" for deceive the enemy

I hope, i helped !

Edited September 12, 2015 by ironsturm

[borg]

Thanks so much !! Are these 'off map' artillery type of units ? Or are they physical tanks/trucks in actual game. Thanks man... I never thought the eastern front can be so much buzz .

[Baneman]

They're off map artillery due to their range.

 

In fact, ALL rockets are offmap in ALL CM titles.

[Taranis]

You're welcome.
 

It's only off map artillery. AFAIK, They were not used in direct fire.

From a TOE point of view:
- Katyushas were generally regrouped in Guards Mortar Regiment (with 36 katyushas) which were often attached to Mechanized/Cavalry/Tank Corps.
- Later in the war (1943?), was formed Divisions with Katyushas
- A BM-30 division = 3 brigades of 3 battalions of 3 battery
- In 1944-45, there was 7 divisions and 13 independent brigades (BM-30), 96 regiments and 30 battalions (BM-13), 19 regiments and 8 battalions (BM-8)

 

So, sorry for the mistake but the BM-13 was the more common ones. BM-8 were a parallel production

source: "Ligne de Front HS n°25 "Le Guide de l'Armée Rouge"" (in French)

Edited September 12, 2015 by ironsturm

[kevinkin]

I was just about to post a question on rockets for scenario OOB design. How responsive were these guys to fire control on the CM scale?

That is, how many missions could a FO bring down in a 60 min time frame? Say relative to a 105 or 120 mm battery? (all off map).

 

Kevin

[Taranis]

With regular FO, you need to wait ~10-11 minutes before first shots coming. But i think, it's better to use them in pre-planned barrage or with TRP. I know you need to wait several minutes for 82mm reloading (7?) and a great part of ammunition is used for the first salvo. I'm sorry, but i haven't more information on this.

@borg:
I forgot to say that "BM" is for Vehicles Mounted launchers while "M" were not

[JasonC]

In real life, these were generally one full salvo, then the battery moved. In a major offensive prep barrage they might reload and fire again, but normally they wanted to be "out of dodge" before any counterbattery fires landed at their firing location. Which was obvious enough, with the smoke and noise and such, that such a shot involved. The rockets had less range than ordinary tube artillery, including the other guy's. So the SOP was to pull up on the friendly side of the line opposite the target, a mile or two behind then friendly front to have "reach" beyond it, and get everything set up for the salvo. Then fire off every rocket tube in one big stonk, as fast as they ripple off. And immediately pull out to a new location, and do any reloading there, for the next shoot.

In the game, the FOs often fire a second salvo a few minutes after the first, at the same point of aim in the case of a map fire barrage. Which is overkill, because the beaten zone of the barrage is already well worked over. Also, you normally want to advance into the area just hit before the men messed up by the barragw have time to rally and pull themselves together into sone coherent shape. The second wave barrage is thus a nuisance, more often than not, in the game. FWIW.

[A co]

Did the Soviet MLRS have the ability to fire smoke? I checked in the game at once (only checked one month of the period the game covers) and there was no smoke mission available. I had thought throwing smoke was one of the important uses of the system. 

 

On a separate note, my advice is don't try to cover too large an area with the 82mm rocket barrage. They need to be concentrated in a limited space to have much chance of causing casualties. Otherwise they will not 'flatten' or 'wipe out' anything.

[JasonC]

A co - no they didn't use them for smoke mission, particularly. I think that is mostly a misunderstanding spread by the German term for rocket weapons, "Nebelwerfer", which is "smoke thrower" in German.  Rocket barrages did obscure the target area thoroughly, but by the dust thrown up by the HE shells, without needing to use actual smoke rockets.  In practice it was better to fire at the enemy and get both effects.  Smoke weapons only really made sense fired near friendly troops or between the lines, not directly on the enemy positions, because HE did about as good a job of blinding them as smoke did.

 

As for the in game 82mms, they are so cheap you can just buy 3-4 modules and give them aim points near each other, 50 to 100 yards apart each in a line, and they will clobber most things under their barrage footprint pretty well.  They are only on the thin side if you only use 1.  The whole point of their being cheap is to use way more of them...

[A co]

Interesting. I suppose the density and duration of HE's smoke and dust effects is generally under-represented in the game, for playability. Especially in the case of big things like aerial bombs.

[JasonC]

Sure, but it is more than that.  Rockets were never primarily smoke weapons or smoke delivery systems.

 

The German nebelwerfer force was named that between the wars to disguise their actual role, which was to be a chemical corps.  Germany was forbidden any chemical weapons by the treaty of Versailles, but they were still interested in developing the delivery systems for chemical weapons and the like.  Initially they used mortars, along the same lines and for the same reasons that the US chemical corps used 4.2 inch rifled mortars between the wars and all through WW II.  They got rocket weapons in the 1930s, still kept the name, and would have been used as chemical weapon delivery systems if chemical use had been a thing in WW II.  It wasn't, and they used almost exclusively HE warheads during the war, even in the German force that had "smoke thrower" in its name.  That name was just a treaty fiction legacy.

 

The Russian rocket program never had a smoke mission.  They called them Guards Mortars to hide their nature before they were sure the Germans knew all about them, and the units kept the Guards Mortar designation throughout the war.  They never called them smoke anything or made much use of them for that.  They were by design and intent, from the outset, high explosive delivery systems.

 

FWIW.

[borg]

$hi* One sure learns a lot from these forums... Guys. Thanks for the info.,. Makes the gameplay more immersive knowing what the exact role & effect certain weapons & equipment had.

[borg]

Not wanting to start a new post - perhaps I get a quick answer too.. And we could mention katyusha whilst we are at it - did the liberation of Odessa and Sevastapol happen during the CMRT period ? And where rockets used frequently during Bagration ?

Edited September 12, 2015 by borg

[JasonC]

Odessa and Sevastopol were both retaken before Bagration kicked off, but not that long before - a few months, in the spring of 1944 rather than the summer.

 

Rockets were used extensively in the early breakthrough fighting for Bagration, but less after that, as the spearheads outdistanced artillery resupply and such.  They were motorized and could occasionally move forward with a tank or mech corps and get a stonk off, but they didn't have the same logistic thruput to their firing positions during the fast advance, as they had back at the start line.  Basically, in the first week or so of breakthrough fighting you'd see them heavily used, and a few holdout cities or surrounded formations a bit longer, helping to reduce them.  The guys up front were moving fast, and fuel rather than artillery ammo (including rockets) was their supply priority.