New feature I would like to see added... timing!

[007]

I think it would be very useful if there could be a time in seconds displayed at the end of every way point.

This way I could time Tanks and men to be able to travel from point A to B together without the men running way out ahead or vise versa.

This time display would be an approximation and would be modified by type of movement selected as well as terrain.

For example: I select a squad and set a point for him to RUN from the woods across the open to a building. When I select a waypoint half way across in the open, i will see "26 s" displayed, then when i set waypoint # 2 i will then see "78 s" displayed.

Now i take in account and add my 15 second pause as well.. So I now know that my men will not arrive at the building untill next order phase. Also I can time a tank to arrive sooner than this for providing cover fire, or time smoke to fire at this point as well.

I think this could add and enhance the stratagy for this game!

Just my suggestion.

Thanks

007

[This message has been edited by 007 (edited 11-12-99).]

[Doug Beman]

CM won't have it because real-life commanders didn't have it. They had to be able to judge distances with the Mk I Eyeball and compute various times-of-travel using the Mk III Brain.

CM uses rea-life speeds for vehicles and men (I assume) so it's a question of figguring out the move rates of infantry in m/sec (or m/min) An infantry squad on "run" should be able to move, what, a mile every 8 or 9 minutes? (I dunno how much that 60+ lbs of equipment will slow them down)

I'm starting to get pretty good at being able to issue movement orders to my troops that have them *almost* at the endpoint of the movement at the end of the minute turn. They don't waste time standing around at the end of their movement.

DjB

[Fionn]

007,

Actually I raised this before privately but was told (and I agree) that it would allow far too accurate co-ordination. You'd have people running platoons to the nearest second instead of to the nearest half minute or minute (which is realistic)...

On grounds of reality this just wouldn't be fair to put in and I agree. It would also remove a lot of the "flavour" and difficulty from co-ordination which is half the fun.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[007]

Now that you guys put it that way, i would have to also agree.

*damn... i hate it when i waste a thread*

007

[MOS was 71331]

While I grant Fionn's point that actual troops wouldn't know that it will take them 22.7 seconds to reach a particular point, we want some mechanism enabling us to tell squad A and vehicle B to coordinate their arrival at that point. If squad and vehicle can see each other, they can adjust their movement to reach their rendezvous more or less simultaneously and at the same time. If I am a platoon leader, I can tell the men what I want them to do. As a CM gamer, I have to fumble with separate movement orders to squad and vehicle, only to see the vehicle wait while the squad has another twenty meters to go.

Actually, now that I think about it, why not have the squad wait where it is and move the vehicle to the squad's position? Let the men rest while the machine works.

In playing Last Defense, I've given movement orders to the Tiger and to the squads in front of the Tiger. For some reason, at least one of the squads appears to wait until it's run down, pushed to the side, and immobilized for the rest of the movement phase. Do I have to pause the Tiger to prevent this?

[Fionn]

Guys,

Do in two turns what you're trying to do in 1 .

It will work out better for you

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Doug Beman]

MOS, I'm pretty sure that in LD, no platoon has squads with uniform experience ratings (not 100% sure, since it's been some time since last playing) This accounts for the difference in "order lag time."

Also factoring in are things like distance, intervening terrain, and probably some other stuff in the recipe that BTS won't tell us for fear of resulting in players playing the percentages, rather than the game itself.

Also, I really don't know how willingly vehicles would restrict their movement to the needs of infantry, or vice versa. Speed is life; I've read of lots of times wherein either tanks or infantry were annihilated because they didn't coordinate their movement with the other

DjB

[Darstand]

Not trying to be a smarta** but don't put any men directly in front of the tank. When I play TLD, as Germans, I place all my men parallel to each other. Sometimes I even start with my Motorized infantry disembarked (gasp!). Does anyone actually ever use the main road? When playing CM as well as real life it pays to think outside the box.

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"Armchair Generals never lose any men"-Darstand

[Guest Captain Foobar]

If you guys REALLY want to know this kind of stuff, simply playtest. Make a chart, by using targeting, and LOS to find out how fast a tiger hunts, moves, fast moves, and infantry also. So if you know how far a pzgren squad can run in 60 sec, youll know how far they can get in 30 and so on. If you need more info than that I'd like to play you, as you'll probably be too busy coordinating synchronized marching to get a clean shot at me... hehe jk

[Herr Oberst]

The topic is timing, but of a different sort...

If I am playing the US commander, it would be really really nice to order a TOT artillery barrage, particularly AFTER my Mgs have pinned a few German squads face down on the ground, or just prior to attacking a particular part of town.

Question 1: Historically, were TOTs limited to "like" weapons? I.E., no mixing mortars and big arty, or could they really coordinate all the heavy support in this manner?

Question 2: Did the Germans employ anything similar?

C'mon Grogs, speak up...

Thanks

[This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 11-14-99).]

[Los]

"Guys,

Do in two turns what you're trying to do in 1 .

It will work out better for you "

Excellent advice Fionn,

It's my observation that wargamers, are always in too much of a rush to get themsleves killed off. No doubt due in great part to flawed scenaroi design which forces payers to move unrealisticly and adnergously fast. Hence instead of learning how to solve a porblem the right way, you have to get gamey.

Los

[MOS was 71331]

I've only seen a TOT once, at an ARTY demo during ROTC summer camp in 1964. The target area was maybe 500 yards -- sorry, meters -- from the stands where I and my 2000 or so fellow cadets were sitting. As the TOT concept was explained, the batteries involved coordinated their firing times to ensure all the shells arrived at the target simultaneously -- or close enought to the same time for government work.

This sort of exercise was fairly simple for the artillery, but I doubt 81 mm or 4.2 in mortars, belonging to infantry or armored cav units, could join in. They wouldn't be on the ARTY commo nets in any case.

[007]

My point is this!

If im commanding a squad, and there is a tank moving along, i should be able to run with my squad at the same speed as the tank to use this monster vehicle for cover.

There is no way to do this with this game.

You have to juge ahead and hope your infantry dont out run the tank, or the tank out run the infantry, cause then you men will become exposed. And in real life this can be done quite easily.

007

[Moon]

Double-oh-seven: the MOVE command moves vehicles and tanks at the same speed as infantry. They WILL move at the same pace next to each other... through open ground. It gets hairy when you have different terrain on your route, e.g. let the tank ride down a road and march the infantry through some scattered trees.

It gets REAL hairy when, e.g., the tank commander decides that the big bad AT Gun firing at it is more important than the bunch of squishies (or was it crunchies?) walking beside him, and backs up or stops or whatever. But this happens in real life. Coordinating infantry and tanks never has been an easy one. Here's a suggestion: when you want to coordinate tanks and infantry, keep the orders simple and don't do too much in one turn. Move in quicker, shorter and "straighter" jumps. I always prefer to have my guys waste 10 or even 20 seconds at the end of a turn because they finished their movement early, than try to ask them to do too much and end up with a mess.

With playing experience, by the way, you will learn to use the turn time to its maximum. By now, after a few months of playing CM, I can judge pretty much to the second where I want my guys to be at the end of the turn. And I am not special in any way, everybody will be able to do this after a while. Just as in real life, you as the CO will learn by experience to keep your orders short and clear and get a feel for what your troops can accomplish and what not.