Fionn Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 It's the way of things Also, you forget that you ever had to learn how to do things that way and figure that THAT way is natural and all others are unnatural This is the same sort of thing (when taken to an extreme) which ends up creating people who simply can't accept there's a different way to do things which might be better. I'm referring to the airman's alphabet word in between November and Papa (whose name shall not be spoken on these boards ) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Make sure your caps lock key is not on! Funny things happen! Ok one suggestion - in the setup screen at the start of the game - I would love to be able to click and drag a unit to move it. Instead of having to click it press move and then click again. This is more logical for a windows user, I dunno about mac users Also by having the cursor keys for fast movement, you can click a unit and move the screen quickly to where you want to move it somewhere that is currently outside your view. Currently you need to move the mouse to the edge - which is slow and the screen will rotate, and you can't obviously click on the screen buttons, because the order is cancelled. Some thoughts - some one said it isn't like watching a war movie - I disagree - if you zoom right in, the game gets a war movie feel I really like how there is a zoomed out detached feel, and then you can zoom right in get all the juicey detail. Also that FOW feel - where you don't always feel like your 100% in control of the game. I found the AI did some weird thing in that scenario where the Axis is attacking. I had lost all my tanks, and only had a handful of infantry units in the victory locations and managed a minor Axis victory - becuase the AI wouldn't move its 2 remaining Hellcats to support its infantry assaults! Weird - bug?? One funy moment - late in that game a Us infnatry squad of 9 soldiers charged my Mg squad and got totally wasted in 10 seconds lOL ------------------ CCJ aka BLITZ_Force My Homepage - www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Beach/4448 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 The AI doesn;t cheat. It only sees what it sees. After such a hard battle would you order your Hellcats down the slope across the bridge and into the town or would you just presume there might be an enemy tank nearby? Think of the AI as an average to slightly above average human player. Oh one thing. I don't know how or why BUT the AI DOES seem to react to losses. E.g. If you give it 4 platoons to attack 3 platoons it is very cautious. Give it 6 and it is REALLY aggressive and willing to charge across open fields etc.. After a long drawn out battle the AI often will have suffered huge losses and will not be aggressive. That may be another reason they didn't move. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elwood Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 The only disappointment I have are the updated hardware requirements. I have a laptop that has a small video card embedded in it. This makes it run a little choppy. I also noticed that the head turning feature when units are at rest seems to really suck up a lot of CPU time. Is this feature really necessary? If it helps fps, I say remove it. Other than that, GREAT JOB!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 CoolColJ, It's likely that the M18s had used up all their high-explosive ammo. Being tank destroyers (not tanks - there's a big difference) their supply of high-explosive ammo is very small. Usually under ten rounds! And they do not have a bow or coaxial machinegun either, just the .50cal AAMG which the commander has to stand up (and be exposed to small-arms fire) to use. So the M18 does not make a very good assault vehicle like a regular tank. Hence, the AI probably decided to keep it back. Elwood, The infantry head-turning doesn't affect the framerate. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwcanuck Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 For Movement, can you move more than one unit at a time instead of clicking on every unit singularly..I got used to do doing this in CC3 by just sweeping with the right-hand mouse. Is there a way to do it in CM? Also, I noticed when my Tiger crashed thru a wall the wall did not show any damage afterwards. Maybe it is because I am using my slower computer with no 3D Voodoo card while my main computer is out for repairs. Even on my slower computer (P200mmx) I am impressed with the game so far RW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 CoolColJ - you don't have to move the mouse to the screen edge. Simply click on the unit you want to reposition, then click and hold one of the arrow buttons on the interface to place the camera so that you have a good view on the are where you want this unit to go. The unit will stay selected (until you click somewhere else on the map). Now, using the keyboard command (e.g. P) you can place the unit anywhere you want. It really works pretty easy, let me tell you... rwcanuck- A Tiger crashed through a wall? You mean a house wall? Not possible. I bet you had unit scaling on and the Tiger was in reality beside the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Wow! I played all night and now here I am at work and I just showed a buddy the demo. We are planning on spending the afternoon in a lan 'conference' ! Seems alot of people have been posting about the UI and I too have some comments. I posted a message earlier that suggested a 'sensitivity' setting for both mouse and Keyboard input. Would that be too hard to implement? Also in regards to the edge of screen Mouse behavior, why not also make that a user selectable setting. If somebody wants the camera to rotate, they can select that, if they want side panning then they could choose that. Might as well keep both camps happy. Unless of course this would mean too much code changing. Something else that nobody I have seen has brought up is support for 3 button mice. I know that BTS seems to favor Mac's but adding in support for the 3rd button or even the scroll wheel on the newer mice would be very welcome addition. One last comment. My only stumbling block with the UI is in the orders 'hotkey' process. When I select a unit and then for example issue the 'M' key to move and then decide that I really dont want that unit to do anything afterall, I can find no way to cancel my currently selected order. What I have been doing is going ahead and issuing the command then using the 'Backspace' key to delete it but this seems very clumsy to me. Is there no way to revert back to non-ording giving status without using the backspace key. I see this most often when I am designating waypoints and forget to right click on my last order. My instinct is to hit the 'escape' key but we all know what that does. Thats another thing, perhaps 'Escape' could be re-designated being that it is a very common key to hit. Just my random thoughts, thanks for a great product and true to my word, I pre-ordered the game last night. Will I still get the Panther Print? Madmatt out....to lunch?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 I agree with Madmatt--that was my first impression when trying to cancel an order and hitting "ESC" which minimizes the app and puts me back at the desktop. I don't know what you Mac folks use for a "Cancel" key, but the ESC key is typically what we PC users use. Congrats, BTS! The demo is outstanding! I've only had a short time to play with it, but I am loving the graphics, the gameplay, and the AI! I also want to thank you profusely for its ability to run smoothly on my 2 year old Pentium Pro 200 MHz--I was so afraid I'd have to upgrade *just* for CM! (and, believe me, I was prepared to do it if necessary!) Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 I agree about the Escape key thing. While it's very handy to have a key that will put you back to the desktop, more then once I wanted to cancel a command and hit the escape key (and Dar, this is from a Mac user... I thought it was an odd choice too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Just a quick comment - you guys ARE aware that you simply can issue another order without having to cancel the first one? What I mean is that if you initially hit M(ove), you can simply hit C(rawl) and the order will be changed accordingly. When you want to cancel the order altogether (i.e. not issue an order for that unit at all), then I suggest hitting L(ine of Sight) and clicking somewhere on map. No need to cancel the order afterwards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Moon, I was "fighting" the same problem last night. What Madmatt and others are getting at is that there appears to be no simple way to totally cancel out of everything when you are in the middle of issuing orders, etc. In other words cancel the current command and then deselect the currently selected unit altogether, etc. I was "fighting" the same problem last night. It would sure be nice to be able to hit the esc key or something and just get completely out of whatever we are in the middle of doing. Thanks Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Or you can just hit backspace one or twice to delete the waypoints u've set and click on another unit. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Hi all, I would like to comment on the user interface. We (you'inz and I) all saw the pictures of the screens with the user interface in them prior to release. My expectations were exceeded Big Time. I have read about the user comments related to shortcomings in this interface. I must say, when comparing this interface to other games and war games in particular, it is quite intuitive, fast and truly a pleasure to work with. I remember last night (or was it this morning) starting the "Last Defense" scenario, I saw in front of me a big mama Tiger. Shortly thereafter the interface entered my mind. I said, "Oh god, now what". That was the last time the user interface entered my mind. BTS, I must say you have truly outdone yourself with this game. The interface provides tremendous power and is super-simple at the same time. Thanks again. Oh yeah and one other thing, I would also like to mention that this demo is easily worth the $45 cost for the game. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 BTS, I can say for certain that the Hellcat is by no means a CS tank. Here's the response i emailed to CoolColJ earlier: Hellcats are tank destroyers. They are loaded out with only a handful of HE rounds. They carry a .50cal, too, but the commander must be unbuttoned to fire it (not exactly a comfortable situation in close support situations). I assume the AI was not willing to risk its TDs in an awkward, unfamiliar role. I played that scen as the Americans and after destroying all the German armor i moved the Hellcats in position to provide close support. I found that this was VERY difficult. Every turn i had to unbutton the commanders (who, in turn, wold close the hatch 5-10 seconds into the action phase every time!). With only 8-10 HE rounds per tank, that doesn't give you many shots. I was able to "influence" some enemy squads. However, in retrospect i should have stayed on the high ground and unbuttoned the cmdrs to provide long range suppression fire with the hmgs. I won nevertheless, but it could have been a disaster (i lost 1 hellcat to an elite troop who snuck into my blindspot and lobbed a grenade!. Disabled the main gun). CM is so cool. "Hey, wanna use a TD as a CS tank? Fine, but be prepare to learn why its called a tank destroyer and only a tank destroyer!" How many other games truly simulate the different roles and purposes for weaponry and equipment? None that I know of. Man, this is great stuff... Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 You know what I am MOST impressed about this whole episode? Not that the game models tanks and tank destroyers differently. That is great but what most impresses me is the fact that the AI not only can tell the difference but seems to know how to use them best. Even when you tried to force them into a tight spot the commanders simply ignored you and buttoned up, just as I would have done ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Exactly! Is this cool or what! Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hot Ryan Posted October 29, 1999 Author Share Posted October 29, 1999 Wow, major responce! I love the game so far, and all of your posts! BTW I don't mean to critisize your CPU saving measures, just certain shortcuts could be made that make the men more realistic. When I said "the biggest thing" I meant the hardest thing, not the most important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicuser Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 My two cents on the interface: I was able to get up and running and playing the game in 10 minutes without looking at the .html doc. I think that says it all, the interface is very easy to use and that button to select the hotbutton list is very convenient. Also a comment on the details: Having moving treads on the tanks is excellant and I did notice the tread moving faster on one side when making a tight turn. Nice details, I was thinking there is so much detail in this game I took a look inside a German halftrack looking for a driver, and sure enough there was a uniformed driver. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Have you noticed the recoil on the 88s and the tanks already? I tell you, some vehicles (like the Priest) are just wonderful to watch in action... (uh, all are, but some even more ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAL Posted October 29, 1999 Share Posted October 29, 1999 Ok, after playing more last night (a lot more , I have to agree with Steve, Charles, Fionn, and Moon. I got used to it and I love the Interface just the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 BTW one other reason the Hellcat isn't a close support tank is it is open-topped. In other words a grenade can kill the men inside and "destroy" the tank. Thus I figure the AI figured it wasn't worth it. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Hellcats as assault vehicles: I used two hellcats to retake objectives and totally obliterate the remaining German forces. They move out quickly, the machine guns were effective and the approach of a tank really disturbed two groups of machine gunners in one case and three platoons of infantry in another. I suspect that my high morale had something to do with the willingness of the cats to run into close quarters for combat. the other factor was the well-coordinated counter-attacks. Strategy: I found that having everyone in the village hide, drawing the German armor into town made for easy pickins when the hellcats arrived. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Historically, the M-18 Hellcat was very much a "shoot 'n' scoot" weapon. I believe it was the fastest tracked AFV in the Allied arsenal, but that speed was bought at the cost of very light armor. All the American TDs were, as Fionn pointed out, open topped. They also tended to have fairly light armor on the front and sides of the turret, as compared to the Sherman. The M-10, the most common American TD, had extra armor on the hull, but the M-18 was light everywhere. The upshot: you *do not* want to get into a slugfest with German tanks or AGs. Use ambush techniques. Fire a couple salvos from concealment, and then beat the hell out of there to your secondary position before the Krauts can respond. Set yourself up with a retreat path that utilizes cover and concealment; use smoke if it's available. Keep shooting and scooting until Jerry runs out of tanks. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I like the way the mouse works for moving and rotating. However, sometimes I would like to scroll left and right instead of rotate. How about if you move the mouse of to the left or right it rotates, unless the SHIFT key is down. When the SHIFT is down it scrolls. I do realize, that the arrow keys can be used to scroll, but I think addition of a SHIFT and mouse move option for scrolling would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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