Coffee Posted November 16, 1999 Share Posted November 16, 1999 I just love this game as it keeps on bring up situations that really could happen. Playing LD adn the 3 TD turn up, so my halftracks start to back up behind cover... now this is a smart move on my HT part. Then to throw a spanner in the works a few moves later i want to move my tiger back more in the forest cover, it decides to turn around before moving deeper under cover, but, it got itself bogged in scattered trees. It had me confused why i couldn't give it movement order Know it has it's ass facing 2 TD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 16, 1999 Share Posted November 16, 1999 Coffee, you shouldn't go around blabbing about how your PBEM game is going; I'm not your opponent (woulda been, but I'm playing vs somebody else, and that takes up my evening time already. Sorry!) but, if your opponent is reading, you just gave away a big weakness in your attack. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted November 16, 1999 Share Posted November 16, 1999 Way cool.. Had it happen to my sherman on the east side of Reisberg. Really got to watch those scattered trees! Well at least I'm pointing in the right direction. Now if only my crew can unditch the beast I could move up just a tad and take on that 88 that otherwise can't see me. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted November 16, 1999 Author Share Posted November 16, 1999 It fine doug, as i am going to crush... and i mean crush my opponent. You know who you are Now, if i can get some of my brave infantry to lob a few grenades in those TD of his.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted November 17, 1999 Share Posted November 17, 1999 You're lucky you're just bogged down, after two turns in Ries i had a tank go from bogged down to imobilised! must of thrown a track trying to get out? still won tho PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 17, 1999 Share Posted November 17, 1999 Wait to you guys play with some weather conditions that really offer a chance of bogging down I remember Fionn playing with rain and muddy ground. I think he drove off the road and got pretty much everybody stuck The 12th SS had this happen to them in the Bulge, and they lost a LOT of armor that way. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huron Posted November 17, 1999 Share Posted November 17, 1999 Just a thought - that you should be able to order another vehicle to help a bogged down one, or maybe even send infantry. Or is it already in the demo? Have to try and send some tank to push on a stucked halftrack... /Huron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 17, 1999 Share Posted November 17, 1999 Yeah Steve I remember this. I was, quite literally cursing the game at this point . The weird thing is that sometimes I play in mud and all my vehicles never get bogged and then other times my entire attack grinds to a halt in 200metres as my entire company gets bogged. It's really chaotic and chancy which makes it great fun Huron In a tactical environment one wouldn't send vehicle to conduct unbogging and towing operations. Towing occured AFTER the battle was over and the front line had moved a few miles.The only thing you'd get if you attempted to tow a bogged vehicle out is a dead towing vehicle.. In any case towing is a long, long process and the battle would basically be over before it gets pulled out. As for using infantry. Not likely. You simply couldn't push a tank out of mud. Maybe you could do it with a HT or something but even then you'd probably need to have entire platoons pulling on ropes. The idea of pushing them out with tanks hadn't occured to me though. That just might work. Funny the work-arounds people come up with ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 17, 1999 Share Posted November 17, 1999 Yeah, but would the vehicle you intended to do the towing actually push, or would its TacAI just steer it around the immobile vehicle? I'm unclear on what situations will allow one vehicle to actually contact another. AFAIK, having two vehicles collide happense when one vehicle directly in front of another stops suddenly, and the vehicle behind can't help but whack the stopped guy. In cases where the vehicle in front is stopped to start with, will the AI just ignore your move order and guide the tower around? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted November 18, 1999 Author Share Posted November 18, 1999 Seems my tiger tank has unbogged itself and i can give it movement orders Is there time limit on how long a tank will be bogged for, or is it random. Eg stays bogged or maybe become unbogged after awhile ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 18, 1999 Share Posted November 18, 1999 Random, but generally you will know within 2 turns if you are going to free the vehicle or not. Unbogging a tank or other heavy vehicle is NOT easy. You should see some of the tricks that the crew and some helping hands can use though. ALL of this is non-combat type stuff, but it is pretty cool info. I need to know this stuff as my Weasel is better than a tank in mud and deep snow (in fact it was designed for both!), but it can still happen. Better to be prepared Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huron Posted November 18, 1999 Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks for the reply, Fionn, Well, I have to elaborate on what I had in mind a little. I choose to spoke about vehicles earlier, to keep my post short, since it was really just me getting excited and thinking out loud. Maybe a tank or a HT could try and help another one that's bogged down. A little push to see if it get's out or maybe 5-10 minutes to throw it a wire and try to tow it out. As for infantry, aye, I realise pulling out tanks are no job for them. But maybe they could assist lighter vehicles (even halftracks, not sure how much they weigh?) if they get bogged down when you are advancing. It could be worth a few heave-ho's to find out if a supporting vehicle can continue the advance or not. And yes, I understand that it's a bad idea to start towing operations if a combat situation is imminent. But look at it as a command decision. If you it's worth the effort to try and unbog a vehicle, you can give it a shot. CM being what it is, I'm sure the AI or another player would punish you if you tried to assist in unbogging in the wrong situation. Speaking of which, it comes down to what the situation is. I agreee, doing pushing and definitely pulling in a scenario as small as LD would probably end in two knocked out tanks (if the Hellcats were around). But in larger scenarios, there might be enough time and areas out of LOS to conduct small towing operations with normal tanks and troops. Of course, it depends on how CM handles things like one tank or HT pushing or pulling another, if there's a degree in how bogged down a vehicle can get before it's completely immobilized and also, there's the question of how long such an operation would take. Anyway, Fionn and you guys at BTS are the experts here. If you say that rescue operations of bogged down vehicles on the fly doesn't happen in an tactical environment and scale that CM handles, then I can understand why it isn't in the game. My idea came from the point that BTS made about intuition and that if you think something should work in real life, try it. I thought it realistic that armour and troops (especially on the advance) can try and help valuable tanks or support vehicles that's getting bogged down. You as the commander have to decide if there's no immediate danger and if it's worth the delay. Regards /Huron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 18, 1999 Share Posted November 18, 1999 Well, I'm sure bogged vehicles were recovered under fire from time to time but people got medals for those kinds of actions. Also I think it's something which might have happened 1% of the time but would be used 50% of the time if put in if you get my drift. Major H said it well a few days ago on the TacOps list. It went something along the lines of "It's nice to model the 1% things but NOT at the expense of messing up the battalion-scale model." I think that's what would happen here. Plus, towing a tank etc is a BIG, LONG job. It literally would take over half a game in most cases. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 18, 1999 Share Posted November 18, 1999 What is the likelihood of bogging in scattered woods? I remember a remark in another thread about how tanks really weren't good at taking out trees or something to that effect. I recently found the legendary Tigerfibel online and on page 39 it tells drivers that they can flatten any tree up to 80 cm (31 inches) but not to drive up over it. They should cross trees at an angle or only run up on it with one track so the other stays on the ground. Fionn, If you could recover a tank within the time frame of a CM scenario you'd get promoted to Inspector of the Panzertruppen immediately. It often takes hours when nobody is shooting at you. [This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 11-18-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 18, 1999 Share Posted November 18, 1999 Cunningham, Hehe , I know, I have a book here with accounts of the Germans recovering vehicles and these were measured in a few hours oer platoon recovered (it was a situation where almost an entire Tiger company bogged down) BUT I'm trying to be the gentler kinder Fionn. It seems a lot of people (mostly Americans for some reason) take it really badly if I disagree with them and quote sources etc. They end up thinking it's personal and getting all offended etc. This then blows out of all proportion since they won't believe I was merely disagreeing with their opinion SO, I've been trying the less definitive approach on the forum for the past few days. Sure it means I put out less data and details but hopefully it's going to stop people freaking when I disagree with them. I hope it does... (Of course, people whom I know won't take it personally will still get the full response but unfortunately I feel I have to be a lot more selective as to what I respond to and how I respond now.) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 19, 1999 Share Posted November 19, 1999 When we were taking pictures of models for use in CM, we talked with a modern day tank recovery grunt. He held various crew positions on a tank recovery vehicle of some sort. He said they used to fill up storage bins with ice and Bud so they could enjoy the afternoon waiting around for everything to get "right" before they could start towing He said it generally took 1/2 a day to get one tank out of a good jam. Also keep in mind that Bogging down can be the result of tossing a track. This was very often the case when trying to get out of a tight mess. Mud/earth builds up inside the track and can basically make the track slip off. If that happens you are talking hours most likely, and then you STILL have to get the thing out In something like light woods brush acts the same way. My tank book says that you should NEVER reverse course or cut a hard turn in thick brush as the chance of tossing a track is really high. So 5-10 minutes for a recovery is not realistic. Any vehicle that can't get out on its own power is most likely going to be stuck there. HTs included, as they are generally pretty heavy due to the armor plating. Still, there is a slight chance, just not significant enough to bother coding. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huron Posted November 19, 1999 Share Posted November 19, 1999 Luckily, I'm a European then, Fionn. And to prove it, I now agree with your disagreement and with BTS. I still think there could be situations in the game, somewhere between when a bogged down tank gets out by itself in a few turns and the half a day it takes to tow it if it's completely stucked and immobilized. Situations that could make for interesting command decisions. But... Fionn makes a good point with his 1%/50% argument. Yes, if it makes gameplay or modelling imbalanced, I can only agree with you. I can also understand BTS, when they say it's not worth bothering to code such slight chances. At the same time it makes me sort of relieved, that I wasn't totally out in the blue with these improvised towing operations and that maybe they could be done. (Okay, okay, 5-10 minutes was very optimistic, even in the best of circumstances, it seems. )) "Byt hey, how long can it take to throw them a hooked wire...?" I thought and remembered times in winter when I've towed my car, conveniently forgetting the time it takes to tow a ditched lorry, for example. Finally, I'd like to say some words of appreciation to the grognards that regulary post on this board and to the people at BTS. From what I've read, it's nice to see that ordinary gamers, with maybe historical interests like me, can bring up issues about the game and have them discussed, without being considered totally ignorant or instantly hit in the head with hard military facts. This could so easily have happened, but instead I find this board (compared to my experience from other message boards) to be very refreshing and informative. Also, it's simply amazing to see how active and responsive BTS is here. Thank you /Huron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 19, 1999 Share Posted November 19, 1999 I've towed a car weighing a ton out of mod.. That was nasty... Towing a 50 ton tank just hell I'd just shoot myself in the head and end the agony (or if I was lucky enough to be an officer scream at the sergeant a bit and go have a nice bath hehe) Seriously though, even throwing a tow rope etc takes a long time. Tanks are big heavy temperamental beasts which are probably only 1/4 as reliable as you think they were and probably 4 times harder to move than you and I think they could possibly be Tanks aren't the be all and end all of the battlefield once you look closer at them. The sheer number of engineers and maintenance soldiers attached to a Schwere Panzer Abteilung for example is amazing. For the record they also had specialised towing vehicles (or were supposed to although we all know what the German TO&Es were like in 44 LOL) and these vehicles wouldn't have been in the front line. That's another reason why towing would have been slowed. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 20, 1999 Share Posted November 20, 1999 I could be wrong, but my understanding was that it was SoP to *NOT* try towing a tank with another battlefield tank. Certainly not under a situation like a battle My memory on this is that the drive train of most tanks is already under great strain, especially for Heavy Tanks, so trying to yank something out of greater weight (such as something of same size that is stuck) might very well result in a mechanical breakdown and have BOTH vehicles stuck. Could be wrong, but I would say that something like a King Tiger probably has enough problems to worry about in terms of breaking down Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 20, 1999 Share Posted November 20, 1999 Mostly right Steve. There were a few exceptions. E.g. the Tiger and Panther were so heavy that it was preferable to use a Bergepanther to pull them out (or any other Tiger or Panther in a pinch). The SdfKwhatever which weighed 18 tons and were designed to tow tanks couldn't pulla TIGER out unless THREE were dedicated to each Tiger. Therefore it was figured better to just use another Panther or Tiger to pull those behemoths out. usual caveats about exceptions etc apply. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 20, 1999 Share Posted November 20, 1999 Sdkfz 9/1 and Sdkfz 9/2 were both used as recovery tractors. The 9/1 had a crane with a 6 metric ton lifting capacity. The 9/2 had a 10 metric ton crane. They were fitted with outrigger legs, an extra jib and some were fitted with a spade at the rear (lke on the Bergepanther). By the time production ceased in 1944 and was replaced by the Bergepanther the final version had the same engine has a Pz IV. The Sdkfz 9 was so big it cost half as much as a Panther did. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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