pritzl Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Congrats BTS. This game is superb! Now, just a few questions. First, what is the exact requirement/procedure for disembarking from a vehicle. Will your troops not get off if the tank is moving? Or, can they get off but not if given a move fast command as long as the vehicle is moving? It just seems that sometimes my guys do what I want and other times I have vehicles driving around with guys on them that were ordered off a turn or two ago or sometimes, vehicles will take off without the squad That was standing right next to it with orders to embark. Also, I have seen a couple of occasions where enemy squads seem to rush out from cover and directly towards the withering firing of numerous squads. Is there some logical reason for this? In every case, the squad was completely annihilated in moments. Lastly, if Forward Observers start "taking cover", are their targeting orders cancelled? I think I had that happen with a 105 FO that was going to shoot at an 88 way up on a hill. It ended up being ordered to fire twice and waiting just over 5 minutes to fire for effect. I almost posative I did not cancel the first targeting order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Troops will most likely not get off a vehicle when it is driving at full speed. Well, I know I wouldn't want to jump off a halftrack at 40 miles an hour or so... However, if something is shooting at them, they might indeed risk of breaking a few legs instead of being shot... Best way to assure that your infantry dismounts is to halt the vehicle. If you don't want it to stop for a full turn, you can also simply give it a PAUSE command. Every PAUSE command adds 15 sec (I think it's 15) to the unit delay and might be enough for the infantry to get off. Death charges: mind you, this is beta and the AI is still being tweaked. FOs that get pinned not only take longer to call in arty, their accuracy drops as well! So keep them out of direct fire if you want that arty to count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritzl Posted October 31, 1999 Author Share Posted October 31, 1999 Thanks for the reply, but I still have some questions about disembarking. I've had a halftrack moving at regular movement speed and troops will not disembark even at that slow pace until it reaches its final destination. Further, I've given the halftrack pause commands to let the troops off. Instead, the vehicle pauses, but the troops remain onboard. In another case, I've had a halftrack with a move fast command actually pause by itself to let troops off midway through its move. It just seems so inconsistant. I would like to know if there are any sort of concrete rules to let me know if/when troops will disembark. Also, how can a FO fire with any accuracy at all unless he is, in turn, visible to the enemy. It's the whole LOS problem. If I can see him, he can see me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Disembarking takes some practice.. I've just ordered a Stug and Tiger to move past the kink in the road in the woods in Last Defence and as they passed the turn each tank disgorged an MG42 team and an FO so it is possible to do this without slowing the advance. Rules: 1. Pick disembarkation points VERY close to the units course (like within 10 metre of it) or your men simply may not disembark. 2. If you are moving then make sure it is only a slow move or they won't disembark. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Hi pritzl, Yes, troops will not disembark from a moving HT unless under enough enemy fire to make them jump out. I think there was a bug reported about Pause orders and disembarking, so I think that explains why they didn't jump out. I'll send along a note about your Fast situation. Not sure what is going on with that. Actually, you can easily have a FO unit spot the enemy but not the other way around. The chance of being spotted has a lot to do with the type of units in question on both sides. FOs are just 2 men, so they are harder to spot than a squad. So the trick is to get them into firing position without being spotted OR firing from a point outside the range of the enemy units (about 400m for a Squad). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 As far as death charges go, listen to this one... It's around turn 20 in the 'Last Defense' scenario. My immobilized Tiger has finally taken out the last M18 and my halftracks start moving forward. They were all out of ammo and I was ferrying troops to the front with them. Guess the AI didn't like this as an infantry squad with only 2 men remaining broke from one of the houses and ran straight for one of my halftracks. As all of my infantry squads on the front were low on ammo, only sporadic fire was directed at the kamikazes. Anyways, near the 50 second mark, the 2 man squad had run about 100m and chucked a grenade into the halftrack, immobilizing it. The crew and infantry squad inside abandoned and killed one of the men and the other immediately surrendered. I thought that this was pretty cool and the remaining survivor should be awarded the Bronze Star (when he is no longer on POW status) ------------------ Jon Johnson Steel Lightning Productions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 NCrawler, Very cool story. I HEAR what has happened to people like you and preacher (the bold backward running, machine gun firing, hot-shot, kamikaze, bad-boy, finger-pointing Serman incident) and Fionn (the Sherman bottleneck incident where the Sherman backed down the road directly toward the 88 and then...). I have SEEN things while playing that make me say cool every scenario. Thanks again BTS for creating such an awesome game. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 re: death charges. My opinion is that the AI is just one teeny tweak short of being solid in this area. I've experienced several of those and think that the AI is trying to do the right thing but coming a bit short. What i mean is this. He softens up a position before assaulting, then moves in. Simple tactic. Sometimes, however, he fails to soften adequately (could be realistic), or he incorrectly perceives the level of threat. Either way, i think the AI is REAL close in this area. I wouldn't want him (it?) to have a perfect record in close assaults anyway Btw, try close assaulting and see how, when properly executed, it works well. In the LAst Def scen i was playing the germans and HAD - i mean HAD - to take an enemy MG out. He was in a stone house. I maneuvered a PG platoon up to close range, and had two HMGs firing into the house from different angles. (Hagen, pay attention here ) I saw the MG go to ground (that last part, Hagen ) and then - and only then - ordered 1 squad to charge directly at him. guess what happened? He withdrew - the right thing for him to do. I lost 0 men out of the squad that charged. They caught up to him, btw...poor sucker... Preacher P.S. I lost that scen. close, but not quite. P.P.S. Been reading Small Unit Actions again...The Singling portion, IMHO, would make a GREAT campaign. I'll do what i can to help, but i really tend to suck at creative stuff [This message has been edited by Preacher (edited 10-31-99).] [This message has been edited by Preacher (edited 10-31-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Preacher, ____________________________________________ You said: re: death charges. My opinion is that the AI is just one teeny tweak short of being solid in this area. I've experienced several of those and think that the AI is trying to do the right thing but coming a bit short. I think: Maybe you are inviting death charges. Maybe the AI knows he is playing the PREACHER and is empowered by momentary divine intervention which escalate his platoons bravery in an attempt to defeat you. ___________________________________________ Also ____________________________________________ you said: Sometimes, however, he fails to soften adequately (could be realistic), or he incorrectly perceives the level of threat. I say: Are you possibly leaving platoon leaders and infantry near the back of the building, not on the front wall of buildings. This would result in the AI not seeing the strength of your defenses and issues a command to take the location(s) in a similar manner to your rush on the Machine Gunner. What would have happened to that infantry platoon taking the building if another squad and platoon leader were inside hiding? _____________________________________________ Sincerely & Jokingly, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Is Singling the town/battle that gets an analysis in Macksey's _Tank vs Tank?_ That, to me, was a perfect example of a) one person (actually one tank) changing the whole battle and what NOT to do on defense as the Germans (ie suddenly charge your armor down off of their fire positions and get close enough to the US armor that they can kill Panthers. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 HAHA!!! I love that grenade in the HT trick Yes, the AI still needs some lessons about group attacks and not leading with HQs. This happens more when long distances are involved (i.e. in Last Defense's fields vs. Riesberg's woods). We can do more to limit the suicide attacks. Er, but by the sounds of it maybe you guys might not like the results! Imagine the whole platoon running out with grenades and chucking them Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I saw grenades used once. I was the Germans in 'Last Defense'. I was taking the houses lined up on the dirt road leading into town. A turn ended with some Americans approaching an empty house. Well, I wasn't about to let him have it. I charged with a squad from a neighboring house and made it before he did. He saw me, turned around, and promptly ran away. I saw a little black object emerge from the roof of the house, but I only got one guy. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 That's strange--I haven't had any problems at all getting infantry to disembark, regardless of what speeds the vehicles are travelling at. I normally put their disembarkation point relatively close to the vehicle's charted path and, even if it's ordered to move fast, the vehicle will slow down and allow the passengers to jump off before continuing its movement order. Too cool! Preacher--Yeah, I read that account on Singling just a month or so again after all the hype for CM rekindled my interest in WWII small unit actions. I think it'd make a terrific scenario, too! It's just the perfect scale for CM. Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I've also had problems disembarking units. I had to replay a turn several times to get it right. I think suicide squads are funny to watch. They run at you, you shoot back, they turn around and run away. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 I was playing the last defense scen. yesterday as the Germans and had a similar suicide incident occur somewhere around turn 20-25. I'd taken the victory loc. single story building along the dirt road on the left leading into the village quite some time earlier. Then at this later juncture I all of a sudden see what appeared to be 2 squads that had been observed for quite some time up the road suddenly rush out of their covered positions and run toward the house (probably 150m or more away I might add). My squad in the house didn't have much ammo left so I had them hiding. But some other units down in the woods could see these guys clear as day. Anyway as they got about halfway there (probably 75m of the 150 m trip) some of my guys start opening up on them and some of them start to go down, but the charge ahead continues. The survivors made it to the little copse of trees almost right next to the building whereupon they were identified as a US company and platoon HQ's no less!!!! At this juncture the platoon HQ only had 1 man left and the battalion HQ had 2 or 3. Even with these heavy casualties they proceed to storm the house. Where my waiting panzer grenadier squad finished them all off. I think I might have taken 1 casualty. Interestingly, none of the American's surrendered, instead choosing to heroically (but perhaps quite unwisely) die. Later in the game I saw a single US soldier rush forward from some trees, circle behinds one of my squads and a platoon HQ positioned in another little copse of trees, and attack them from behind. He wrecked havoc for about a minute, but they turned around and took care of him. Not sure if he got anybody, or not, but I don't think he did. Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Take Mikester's description above and say the events occured in turns 27-30. Afterwards, I did view the map and every single American platoon was shaken, broken, panicked and beaten down like a nail into wood. I think the Platoon Leaders and Company HQ's were the only remaining soldiers with significant Morale to attack. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Deych Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 Some observations: I've seen several (two, to be exact) cases where AI advanced the FO team ahead of it's other line infantry units. To me, this appears unlikely, barring a completely desperate situation (which it wasn't, the FO had a platoon (-) of infantry behind him). Also, I'm not 100% sure of this, but I've observed several instances of units vaccilating under fire. First, they'd advance towards the enemy, then retreat, then advance again. I can see how such behavior could happen, but it /felt/ wrong....I think because the changes were too quick, all within one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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