Combat system

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi there,

back again with a new topic. I am currently trying, to understand the battle system. Could someone tell me the complete formula for the loss calculation. In the Manual (should be page 40 i belive) there is just a part of it, the multplier and an aproximate calculation. Until this I can totally comprehend the calculation. Unfortunaly the manual doesn't decribe exactly, how the other factors (the manual names "unit type, experience, supply, strength, morale, HQ -command rating and combat morale bonus-, entrenchment and defensive bonus by terrain type" as factors) do exactly influence the battle outcome. Could someone tell me the complete battle formula?

The reason why this attracts my interest: I had in a new game a number of austrian corpses adjacent to a serbian detachement in Belgrad. All in diferent combat situations (some with a river between, some not; some with prepared attack bonus, some not; some facing serbian trenches, some not; two available HQs with different rating and so on). By loading and reloading several times, i recognized, that it is far from equal, in which succession I attack. In some tested succession, i was far from destroing the detachement, in other successions I could destroy it relative savely. To my surprise it was not the order i thought to be the best, that had the best result. So the reason behind my above question ist, to come behind the mechanics, so I can say, in which order i should attck before a battle starts.

Furchtlosundtrew

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi,

no answer so far to my issue:confused:; i am actually doing some tests for the several factors, that should influence the combat result, to figure out, how big they each are.

You could help me doing that, by answering some smaller questions:

- Is the terrain defense bonus cumulative to entrenchment or ist it alternativ(should be cumulative, shouldn't it)?

- entrenchment and ground cover is not cumulative but alternative, right?

- The effect of ground cover is much lesser, than the effect of entrenchment,

right? (can anyone tell me, how big the difference is?)

- If an entrenched unit is attacked from the rear, does the entrenchment have no effect? The entrenchment (like i do understand it from the manual) should have two effects: a defense bonus and a chance of suppressing losses. I belive, an entrenched unit, that is attacked from the rear, will not benefit from the defense bonus of his trenches, but it will benefit from the loss suprpression chance, right?

- Does an entrenched unit, that is attacked from the rear, benefit from the ground cover, the unit should have, when it would be not entrenchend?

- The chance of loss suppression, that should be 10 % for every step entrenchment: This does not influence the combat formula itself but is calculated, after the combat is calculated, right? Is this chance calculated for every point, that would otherwise be lost in the combat? (to make an example what I am thinking about: a defending unit with entrenchment 3 has a combat result of 4 points losses. Is there a 30 % Chance to avoid all 4 points of losses, that is calculated one time or will there be four calculations - for every point of losses - with each a chance of 30 % to avoid one point of losses [i belive the last one is right...])

would be glad, to hear your opinion,

Furchtlosundtrew

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Furchtlosundtrew,

I would suggest starting on page 37 (WWI manual) in order to understand how Unit Morale and then the subsequent Readiness values are calculated first as these play an integral part in the final combat formula.

The combat formula on page 40 is indeed the full one as it makes use of the previously calculated morale and readiness for each unit.

For example, once attacker and defender readiness is calculated based on unit morale, the 'multiplier' is determined (as shown in the formula for multiplier on page 40) for each of the attacker and defender, i.e. the attacker multiplier and the defender multiplier.

Then this multiplier value is factored into the final combat formula.

The defender and attacker type values are determined by the type of combat. For example, if a Corps is attacking another Corps unit then it would be the Soft Attack value for the attacker, and the Soft Defense value for the defender.

These values can be seen for the unit types either in the Game or Editor under the 'Properties' screens for each unit type.

The 'experience', 'strength' values etc., are what are shown for the unit when clicking on them or moving the mouse over them.

The specific 'defensive bonuses' for the various terrain and resource types can be found by right clicking the specific item and viewing its properties.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

Hi,

- Is the terrain defense bonus cumulative to entrenchment or ist it alternativ(should be cumulative, shouldn't it)?

This is shown in the formula on page 40 as cumulative, i.e. it is 'entrenchment + defense bonuses'

- entrenchment and ground cover is not cumulative but alternative, right?

- The effect of ground cover is much lesser, than the effect of entrenchment,

right? (can anyone tell me, how big the difference is?)

These are actually treated identical in the formula as 'entrenchment', it is just that we rename 'entrenchment' to 'ground cover' for the WWI releases if and only if a unit is not in a Fortress/Trench.

- If an entrenched unit is attacked from the rear, does the entrenchment have no effect? The entrenchment (like i do understand it from the manual) should have two effects: a defense bonus and a chance of suppressing losses. I belive, an entrenched unit, that is attacked from the rear, will not benefit from the defense bonus of his trenches, but it will benefit from the loss suprpression chance, right?

- Does an entrenched unit, that is attacked from the rear, benefit from the ground cover, the unit should have, when it would be not entrenchend?

Entrenchment will always have an effect in the formula, but the defensive bonuses may not apply if and only if they are attacked from a side that a Trench is not facing... otherwise the defensive bonus will apply for other items such as a forest, hill, town and so on regardless from which side it is attacked from.

- The chance of loss suppression, that should be 10 % for every step entrenchment: This does not influence the combat formula itself but is calculated, after the combat is calculated, right? Is this chance calculated for every point, that would otherwise be lost in the combat? (to make an example what I am thinking about: a defending unit with entrenchment 3 has a combat result of 4 points losses. Is there a 30 % Chance to avoid all 4 points of losses, that is calculated one time or will there be four calculations - for every point of losses - with each a chance of 30 % to avoid one point of losses [i belive the last one is right...])

It should be just the one time chance to avoid all losses.

would be glad, to hear your opinion,

Furchtlosundtrew

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Thank you for your answers Hubert,

i don't understand everything (maybe it's my bad english), so some additional questions:

- Combat formula: Ok, seems like i missunderstood the manual. The listed factors, I enumerated in my starting post above, are already contained in the combat formula itself, or in the formulas for morale and readiness, on which the combat formula is based, right?

Additional (a): The effect of prepared attack (should be 35 %) is calculated in the end, based on the outcome of the combat formula for the defender losses an then multiplied with 1,35. And the effect for attacking over rivers (should be - 30%) analog (combat outcome defender losses x 0,7) right?

Additional (: The effect of weather does influence the battle too, doesn't it? Which are the exact effects and are they calculated like prepared attack bonus/river malus?

Additional ©: What about an uneven result in the combat calculation. To make an example what I think about: The calculated result for the losses of the defender is 3,3 (instead of 3,0). It should be shown in the battle prediction as defender losses 3. Is there a higher possibility to cause 4 points of losses, than it would be, if the calculated result would be 2,8? Or does it make no difference, wether the calculated result is (to name the extremes) 2.5 oder 3.4?

Additional (d): Experience isn't always an even value, too. Before I get the first full experience star (or iron cross if I play the CPs), it can be 0,3, 0,4 0,5 etc... Does the battle formula calculate with the exact (uneven) values or does it only calculate with the full numbers 0, 1, 2 or 3. If the last one is right, does the game round up from a value 0,5/1,5 etc. on or do I have to reach experience 1,0 to gain the first effect from experience?

Where can I read the exact experience value, my unit has at the moment?

-entrenchment/ground cover: To make it clear for me: There is no difference in the battle result between two defending units, one with entrenchment 1 and the other with ground cover 1? This would mean, that it is useless, to entrench units, until I have researched trench warfare...

Additional: I think this one wasn't answered clearly (or I didn't understand): If a unit is attacked from a side, trenches are not facing, does this unit have ground cover instead of entrenchment?

- entrenchment/facing: You write, entrenchment will always have an effect in the formula, but there will be no defense bonus from the trenches, when attacked from a side, the trench is not facing. But what remains as an effect? The formula for the defender losses is

Att-Mult* (Att Typ Value + Att Exp/3) - (Def Mult*(Def Exp/3 + Entrench + Def Bon)).

Lets fill the variables, maybe you can see, where my problem is or where i make the mistake. Lets make an example with defender readiness 70 and attacker 90, entrenchment 2 and just plain terrain (what means no extra Defense Bonus from terrain). Attack and defence type value are 4 in my example. Experience 1 for each side.

Filled this in, the formula is

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 2 + 0)

= 0,9*4,3333333 - (0,7*2,333333)

= 3,8999 - 1,6333

= 2,2666

If I attack from a side, the trench is not facing, it should be like this:

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 0 + 0)

= 3,8999 - (0,7*0,33333)

= 3,8999 - 0,2333

= 3,6666

When this is right, where is the remainig effect of trenches when attacked from a not trench facing side:confused:

Would be glad if you could help me again

Furchtlosundtrew

[Hubert Cater]

- Combat formula: Ok, seems like i missunderstood the manual. The listed factors, I enumerated in my starting post above, are already contained in the combat formula itself, or in the formulas for morale and readiness, on which the combat formula is based, right?

Correct

Additional (a): The effect of prepared attack (should be 35 %) is calculated in the end, based on the outcome of the combat formula for the defender losses an then multiplied with 1,35. And the effect for attacking over rivers (should be - 30%) analog (combat outcome defender losses x 0,7) right?

The effect of the prepared attack bonus applies to the 'multiplier' in the combat formula.

Attacker Multiplier = Readiness / 100 + 'Prepared Attack Bonus / 100'

The effect for attacking across rivers only reduces the final defending unit losses by the amount specified for being across a river. So if the normal predicted losses would be 10 points, then it would be reduced by 30% and result in 7 points of losses.

Additional (: The effect of weather does influence the battle too, doesn't it? Which are the exact effects and are they calculated like prepared attack bonus/river malus?

Defender losses are reduced by 50% when they are attacked by air units that attack in rain, snow or sandstorms, or by ground units that attack on frozen ground, or by naval units that attack during storms.

Additional ©: What about an uneven result in the combat calculation. To make an example what I think about: The calculated result for the losses of the defender is 3,3 (instead of 3,0). It should be shown in the battle prediction as defender losses 3. Is there a higher possibility to cause 4 points of losses, than it would be, if the calculated result would be 2,8? Or does it make no difference, wether the calculated result is (to name the extremes) 2.5 oder 3.4?

I'm not sure I understand, 3:3 just means that the attacker is predicted to lose 3 points and the defender 3 points as well. After that there is the possibility for both sides to receive an extra +/- 1 point loss to their predicted losses.

Additional (d): Experience isn't always an even value, too. Before I get the first full experience star (or iron cross if I play the CPs), it can be 0,3, 0,4 0,5 etc... Does the battle formula calculate with the exact (uneven) values or does it only calculate with the full numbers 0, 1, 2 or 3. If the last one is right, does the game round up from a value 0,5/1,5 etc. on or do I have to reach experience 1,0 to gain the first effect from experience?

Where can I read the exact experience value, my unit has at the moment?

It calculates with the exact uneven value.

-entrenchment/ground cover: To make it clear for me: There is no difference in the battle result between two defending units, one with entrenchment 1 and the other with ground cover 1? This would mean, that it is useless, to entrench units, until I have researched trench warfare...

In terms of the 'entrenchment' value that applies to the combat formula, no, but you do get the defensive bonuses applied to the formula when a unit is inside a trench only when it is 'entrenched'.

All this means is that when you entrench you also build trenches that give you the additional defensive bonuses of being within a 'fortification' that is applied to the combat formula as well.

When you look at the properties of a unit on a 'Trench', right click unit and select Properties->Trench, you'll see the defensive bonuses that will apply during combat when defending.

Additional: I think this one wasn't answered clearly (or I didn't understand): If a unit is attacked from a side, trenches are not facing, does this unit have ground cover instead of entrenchment?

It will have whatever the current 'entrenchment' value is applied to the formula. It could be at entrenchment 4 but it will receive no defensive bonuses for being in the trench if it is attacked from a side the trench is not facing.

- entrenchment/facing: You write, entrenchment will always have an effect in the formula, but there will be no defense bonus from the trenches, when attacked from a side, the trench is not facing. But what remains as an effect? The formula for the defender losses is

Att-Mult* (Att Typ Value + Att Exp/3) - (Def Mult*(Def Exp/3 + Entrench + Def Bon)).

This just means that in the above formula, the value for Def Bonus = 0

Lets fill the variables, maybe you can see, where my problem is or where i make the mistake. Lets make an example with defender readiness 70 and attacker 90, entrenchment 2 and just plain terrain (what means no extra Defense Bonus from terrain). Attack and defence type value are 4 in my example. Experience 1 for each side.

Filled this in, the formula is

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 2 + 0)

Not quite, if let's say the attack is a 'Soft Attack' then the 'Soft Defense Bonus' for a Trench of 3 would apply as follows:

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 2 + 3)

If I attack from a side, the trench is not facing, it should be like this:

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 0 + 0)

Not quite either, it would rather look like this:

90/100*(4+1/3) - (70/100*(1/3 + 2 + 0)

Hope this helps

Hubert

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi Hubert,

yes, this helps a lot, thank you:)!

My Mistake was, that i didn't realise the defense bonus given by trenches additional to the trench value itself. I never realised this defense bonus and thought, the entrenchment value would be the only benefit from trenches. Now i got it, this answers nearly all my questions.

One is left, the additional ©. Indeed I made this one not sufficient clear. I make an example, to show you, what i want to know. What I wanna show is the value of the defenders losses. It is calculated like this:

Att Mult*(Att Typ Val + Att Exp/3) - (Def Mult*(Def Exp/3 + Entr + DefBon))

I wanna make two examples to show my problem. In both examples the attack type value shell be 4, the Experience of Attacker and Defender shell be each 1, the Defenders readiness shell be 70 (and because of this the Defender Multiplier 0,7). In both examples the defender shell not have any entrenchment or defensive bonus. So the only variable shell be the attackers readiness (and following this his Multiplier). It shell be 65 in the first version and 85 in the second version. Let's fill in:

Version 1:

0,65*(4 + 1/3) - (0,7*(1/3 + 0 + 0))

=2,8166666 - 0,2333333

=2,5833333

I think the game rounds it up to a prediction of 3 points losses (right?)

Version 2:

0,85*(4 + 1/3) - (0,7*(1/3 + 0 + 0))

=3,6833333 - 0,2333333

=3,45

I think the game rounds it down to 3 points losses (right?)

If you look to the exact (not rounded) results, there is a difference of nearly 1.0 points between the two results. Does this difference have any effect (maybe a higher chance of causing the one point extra losses, you wrote about) or is it completely equal, wether the prediction comes from a strongly rounded up or a strongly rounded down calculation?

(I hope i could make clear this time, what i wanna to know).

As (almost) always I have a couple of additional questions (hoping my nosiness doesn't nerve too much:o)

additional (1): You told my, that the prepared attack bonus applies to the attacker multiplier in the formula. Is this true for the calculation for the defender losses and the attacker losses (in both formulas the attacker multiplier is used)?

additional (2): For an HQ-Unit there is shown no readiness in the unit informations, but the combat formula bases on the readiness. Do they have a value for readiness (and if yes, where can i see it) or don't they (and if this is right: how is the combat with HQs calculated instead?).

additional (3): Formulas for morale and readiness:

In an older thread you answered the question of the user Altaris after the formulas for readiness and morale. He supposed, that the formulas are not correct like wrote in the manual. You answered him the following formulas:

Morale:

morale / 10 * .75 + (strength - old morale / 10 * .75) * unit.supply / 10 * morale / 100

Readiness:

((strength + HQ Rating) / 2 + morale / 10 + Parent HQ Experience Value) / 2

Maybe it's too long ago, that i went from school, or we have another notation for mathematics in Germany but i think these formulas can't be correct too. If I fill into the morale formula an old morale of 90 and strength an supply each 10 (nearly optimale values), i get the following result:

90/10*.75 + (10 - 90/10*.75)*10/10*90/100

=9*.75 + (10 - 9*.75)*1*0,9

=6,75 + (10 - 6,75)*0,9

=6,75 + 2,925

=9,675

This is clearly not the result, it should be.

I tried a little bit and maybe I found a sollution. My theorie is, that the formula should be

Old Morale*0,75 + (Strength*10 - Old Morale*0,75)*Suppl/10*Old Morale/100

If I fill in here, I get a result of 96,75...

And to readiness: If I fill into the above formula values of strength 10, HQ rating 8, Morale 90, HQ experience 2 (again nearly optimale values) I get the following readiness:

((10 + 8)/2 + 90/10 + 2)/2

=(18/2 + 9 + 2)/2

= (9 + 11)/2

= 18/2

= 9

This can't be the result, too. Can you help me again, where my mistake is?

Furchtlosundtrew

[Hubert Cater]

If you look to the exact (not rounded) results, there is a difference of nearly 1.0 points between the two results. Does this difference have any effect (maybe a higher chance of causing the one point extra losses, you wrote about) or is it completely equal, wether the prediction comes from a strongly rounded up or a strongly rounded down calculation?

The difference doesn't have any effect on the +/- 1, i.e. it is the same regardless of any previous rounding.

additional (1): You told my, that the prepared attack bonus applies to the attacker multiplier in the formula. Is this true for the calculation for the defender losses and the attacker losses (in both formulas the attacker multiplier is used)?

Yes

additional (2): For an HQ-Unit there is shown no readiness in the unit informations, but the combat formula bases on the readiness. Do they have a value for readiness (and if yes, where can i see it) or don't they (and if this is right: how is the combat with HQs calculated instead?).

Yes, even though it is not shown, HQs have a value for readiness and morale and it is calculated the same way as it is for all units.

Maybe it's too long ago, that i went from school, or we have another notation for mathematics in Germany but i think these formulas can't be correct too. If I fill into the morale formula an old morale of 90 and strength an supply each 10 (nearly optimale values), i get the following result:

Internally the values are stored (generally speaking) as a value between 0 and 10 and then converted to a % when shown in the information displays. So when you fill in the old value for morale it would be 9 and not 90. I can agree that this is more confusing than it has to be so we'll clarify this in the next version of the manual for future games.

Hopefully that helps

Hubert

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi Hubert,

yes thanks, this helps again. I don't have any additional questions this time.

Just two comments before closing this thread:

- I think it would be good, to be able to see the readiness of an (enemy) HQ. Normally (but not always) it will have relative high numbers and you should be able, to calculate the prospect of success before attacking an enemy HQ.

- Yeah, the formulas are written down a little bit confusing in the manual. Maybe an example calculation would make it clearer for other users. By the way: My sollution for the morale formula ("strength*10") comes to the same results as if i calculate in the "right" way you told me (values between 0 an 10 and then converting to %).

So thank you again for your patience in answering my questions and the (like always) helpful hints

Furchtlosundtrew

[Hubert Cater]

My pleasure

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi there,

back again with some additional questions to this topic:

1. After calculating the battle results there is a +1/-1 chance for each side. What about the case, if one side (mostly the defending unit) just has a strength left of 1 point. The attacking unit would in many cases be able to cause more then 1 point damage but is limited to one point because of the strength of it's opponent. Is there nevertheless the chance, that the attacking unit will make 1 point less damage then predictet (what means 0 points)?

2. Demoralisation: If a unit takes casualities in a combat it will automatically and immediately loose morale and readiness as both values are partly based on strength, right?

3. What abot the effect, if a HQ, an enemy unit is attached to, looses strength. As I understand the manual, the benefit, a unit gets from a HQ for it's readiness is related to the HQ strength [formula is the following i belive: readiness = ((strenght + HQrating*HQstrength/10)/2 + Morale/10 + HQ eperience*HQ strength/10)/2]. If this is true, there should be a prompt effect on the readiness of a unit, when the HQ, the unit is attached to, looses strength (same way, as losses of the unit itself affect the units readiness immediately). But while doing some tests it seems to me, that this is not, what happens...:confused:

4. What about direct demoralisation: Some units (especially battle ships, recon bombers and artillery) have a value for demoralisation. How is this calculated? I understand the manual in the following way: A heavy artillery unit has a demoralisation value of 5 % (if not upgraded). So with each shot it takes 5 % of the morale of the enemy unit.

- Does this mean 5 % or 5 percent points?

- Is the demoralisation result always the same or is there some random as in the combat calculation?

- Do entrenchment and/or other defense boni play a role?

- If the artillery has not full strength, the formula would be: demoralisation= 5%*unit strength/10 right?

- what about an overstrenght unit, does a elite artillery with strength 13 cause 5 % * 1.3 demoralisation?

Furchtlosundtrew

[Hubert Cater]

Hi

1) Correct

2) Correct

3) The bonus a unit receives from an HQ is the HQ rating as well as the experience of the HQ and these are always taken into account when calculating the attached unit readiness.

Here is the most recent formula for unit Readiness which may differ from the manual:

((unit.strength + attached HQ Rating) / 2 + unit.morale + attached HQ Experience) / 2

4) It would be 5%, not percentage points and is always the value specified and entrenchment or other defensive bonuses do not play a role

In all cases, if the demoralization value is let's say 5% the calculation is as follows:

morale_recalculation := defender_unit.morale - defender_unit.morale * 5% * attacker_unit.strength / 10

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi Hubert,

thanks for your fast answer.

As always some comment/ additional questions to make it clear for me

ad 1) OK... I don't like this rule as it makes it simply depending from pure luck, wether the unit gets anihilated (chance 2/3) or not (chance 1/3). I would prefer a normal loss calculation and if the prediction is higher than the units's strength it should be a safe victory for the attacker, but just my opinion...

ad 2) ok.

ad 3) Yes, but the strength of the HQ itself does influence the benefit, the HQ gives to it's attached unit's readiness, right? What i wanna say, a HQ with (for example) a strength of just 7 points gives just 70 % of his Rating and his combat morale bonus to it's attached units right?

And does this influence the unit's readiness during a turn, if the HQ is damaged (and looses some steps of strength) during the turn?

ad 4) OK, another point that is now totally clear for me, thank you:)

Furchtlosundtrew

[Wodin]

Just wondering..doesn't knowing to much about the algorithms etc ruin the immersion of the game and just become a game of intense maths? Personally I'd rather not know too much as I sometimes finding knowing to much can take away immersion and can show up aspects that might not be as indepth as you originally thought was going on.

[Hubert Cater]

1) Definitely a fair point and we can adjust this for future games

3) I had to double check as the parent HQ experience that is passed on in that formula has its own formula and yes it does depend on HQ strength

The parent HQ experience value that is passed along is as follows:

hq_unit.experience * hq_unit.strength / 10

Note, the rating is not reduced by the HQ strength, only the experience.

It should also have an immediate effect during the turn as readiness is a dynamically calculated value and never stored... so whenever a unit readiness value is in need of determination the formulas are applied to determine the most up to date value.

[Furchtlosundtrew]

Hi Hubert,

thanks for your answer, this helps indeed!

Maybe I will ask again with more questions...

Furchtlosundtrew