Guest L Tankersley Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I'm curious when newly-arrived reinforcements appear in the scenario. By this I mean, do they appear at the beginning of a turn, or the end. By "beginning" I mean they don't show up in the movie for (say) turn 10, but are on the map waiting for orders to be issued for turn 11, while by "end" I mean they appear at the end of turn 10. I ask because I'm wondering whether the opposing side has the opportunity to react immediately to the appearance of reinforcements (assuming the entry area is under observation) or if there is in effect a "free" turn for the new forces before the opponent can issue orders in response to their appearance. It's unclear from the AARs just exactly when Fionn saw the American reinforcements arrive in the town. L. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 From the US point of view, the reinforcements were not visible during the replay of turn... uh, was it 10? - They appeared on map ready to receive orders by the start of the orders phase in turn...uh, 11. I do think, however, that they also would appear on the map (if spotted!) at the beginning of the orders phase for the German player in turn 11. So in that respect there is no free turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 If this is so, Martin, this resolves a matter I, also, had considered to be important. I had wondered if reinforcements could just pop out of nowhere in the middle of an enemy redeployment, and begin shooting all around and totally surprise the enemy, even though the reinforcements might have popped out right in LOS or effective weapon range of the enemy. If the enemy gets to see the reinforcements (LOS circumstances permitting, of course) at the beginning of the first orders phase that the reinforcements are "there" this isn't nearly so big a problem. DjB [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Right. Although the Tactical AI would presumably do some automatic retargetting/etc. to keep things from getting totally out-of-hand, in most cases it seems likely that the opponent would have been able to see the units arriving at the end of the previous turn if not for the "mapedge effect." and thus be able to begin changing overall orders. Of course, I guess if your units were out of C2 then even if you issued orders to react to the newly-arrived units, it might take a significant interval before they actually began following your plan. L. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I should see the units at the beginning fo the turn thus allowing me to adjust to them BUT since I had no LOS to those guys I didn't see them until they dropped all my guys ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I know I'm dredging this post up from the bowels of the board, but... Is this how reinforcements work in the Beta Demo? I tried this out in last defense by playing hot seat against myself. I drove the Tiger up the hill where the Hellcats appear. It was sitting there, unbuttoned, not under fire, and facing the entrance point on the German orders phase. On the US phase, it announced reinforcements had arrived, and I could order them around. During the playback, the Tiger had the hellcats fully identified within a few seconds, so seeing them wasn't a problem. I would think it'd be much more fair for the reinforcements to appear at the end of the action phase, so that the opponent gets a chance to react to the reinforcements during his orders phase, instead of the "free" turn, like mentioned above. Or perhaps I'm missing something in the game mechanics here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Ben: WHEN new units appear is not nearly as important as WHERE they appear. In this scenario they appear on the top of a hill with LOS to just about everywhere. This is easily fixed with a slightly dif. map or entry point. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverendo Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Wouldn't it be a lot more interesting if reinforcements were a bit more random and/or tardy? I always know 3 hellcats are arriving at turn 10, and so does my opponent. I would love to find 2 hellcats arriving at turn 12 instead (for example), perhaps 4 shermans arriving at turn 9, perhaps no reinforcements arriving at all... Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 I think random arrival of units is on 'The List' for CM2. But keep in mind it makes it REAL, REAL hard to balance a scenario. How would you like to PBEM the "Last Stand" scenario and your Hellcats don't arrive until 5 or so turns after they normally do....kinda handicaps you don't it? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 Actually, it has been in and working for about 8 months now Scott's point is EXACTLY why I had them come in on Turn 10, although I suppose I could have made it an 80% chance (thinking about it now, that is what I would do). I think I had both side's reinforcements set to be random with a high chance of coming in on the specified turn. What I mean is that you can specify the SOONEST turn the guys can come in, then a percenatage chance. The system will keep trying to get the guys on the map each turn after they don't show up until they do or the game ends. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 I'm glad to hear that reinforcements can be controled by the scenario designer. Allowing us to choose % possible with a turn and following turns will create many a tense moment for players. As regards "balance" in scenarios: Sometimes fun, sometimes too predictable in war games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 I agree tahat this is mostly a scenario design issue, but still. Since the side getting the reinforcements gets a chance to give orders to them the turn they come in, the other side should get a chance to react to them. The TacAI does a pretty good job of it, but I may want to reposition troops if it's a new infantry threat, or whatever. Also, I'm not sure if a buttoned tank will react more quickly to a new threat if the player explicitly targets it then if it where just left up to it's on devices. Finally, you may want to target specific units (like you want the Tiger and Stugs to target one M-18 apiece) I know it most scenarios this won't make a difference, but in the few that it does, I would think that the reinforcements shouldn't get a free turn... Wouldn't just having them turn up on the 60th second of the turn before do the trick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 Ben: I see your point now. I must say I agree with you (now that I understand ) But, I would not put too much of a priority on this issue myself, because it can be 'worked around' IMO. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 Scott, I agree that it should be pretty low on The List, but I was hoping it'd at least go on there. I'm sure it won't be a factor in the majority of scenarios (it's not really a problem in Reisberg, for example) It's just that out of the three scenarios most of us have been exposed to (Fionn and Martin's game, and the two in the beta demo) this situation has occured in two of them So it probably seems like much more of an issue than it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 22, 1999 Share Posted November 22, 1999 Steve - what is the final word on this "free-turn" issue? I just played a scenario where the "free turn" was decisive and very unfair. I think that the reinforcements should not get a free turn. They should either come in on the 60th second of the previous turn, or they should not be able to accept orders for the turn they come in on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 22, 1999 Share Posted November 22, 1999 Another thing is that if you time it right, U can have all your artillery fire dropping on the hilltop exactly when the hellcats arrive. Boom, boom! Dead hellcats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted November 22, 1999 Share Posted November 22, 1999 Rather silly of me but I just couldn't bring myself to bring in artillery or smoke on that hill even though I was Pbming... everyone knows when the tanks are coming but it just didn't seem right, I could justify putting my tanks in positions where hopefully they wouldn't be taken out imediatly but I didn't want to take any undue advantages of my opponents. I guess my reasons for this are that I'm roleplaying and to use cheats will ruin my fun. Of course winning is the objective but a solid black eye on a challenging opponent will always make up for whatever losses taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pham Posted November 22, 1999 Share Posted November 22, 1999 I was under the impression that it's not really a free turn due to the AI. Example: In Last Defense, if I'm playing Axis and have rolled my 3 tanks and handfull of halftracks towards town(which I would do by turn 10 if I try to play as if I don't know that those damn hellcats are going to pop in suddenly), once the hellcats come in it's not like they get to shoot monkeys in a barrel. My tank commanders have never, in all the times I've done this scenerio, failed to instantly ignore their current target and focus on the far more dangerous hellcats. Considering that the hellcats don't appear on the map with my tanks already aquired, it's an equal situation. At the start of turn 11(?), both sides tanks are unfocused on each other, but will both try to knock each other out during that turn without my intervention. There's really no need to be able to specifically and manually instruct each tank to fire at them. I don't pay my Tiger commander to target that rifle platoon holed up behind the stone wall when there's enemy tanks around. I think, and I'm no expert here, that the reason the Axis tanks get knocked out so easily is that the hellcats can target, turn and fire quicker... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 22, 1999 Share Posted November 22, 1999 Pham, I agree, in Last Defense, the german armor usually turns to the threat fairly quickly. I also agree that I think that the German's get it mostly due to the hellcats turret rotation and rate of fire more then the reaction time. But, there are other issues. Say I want to put some HE or smoke from the 105 on the hill as soon as I see them, I have to wait an extra minute to do this. Or, in the alpha PBEM game, if Fionn could have seen Martin's reinforcements (which, I'm not sure whether Fionn had LOS now or not, since he wouldn't have seen them either way, as the game stands now) He might have reoriented some squads, or canceled movement orders for MGs running in the open Again, I know this probably won't come up often, since I suspect most scenarios will have reinforcements arriving from behind. But in the case were it does come into play, I think it should be tweaked. Though, I'm not sure of the coding hassels involved in it, so I'm hoping for maybe a patch after release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 23, 1999 Share Posted November 23, 1999 BTS says the "free turn" for reinforcements was a bug and has been fixed. They've fixed it so reinforcements have a chance to be spotted right when they arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 23, 1999 Share Posted November 23, 1999 Thanks BDW, I musta missed that post. I'll shut up about this now then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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