Tank gun aiming / firing sequence

[John Kettler]

Flanker15,

Yet another reason why grogs are so valuable! What you just said is info I've never had before. So, if one of the devices on the T-34 turret roof is a panoramic gunsight (and panoramic periscope?), what's the other device?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Flanker15]

If you mean on the T-34-85 it's another panoramic periscope, there's another one on the cupola too so everyone in the turret gets one, only the gunner's one is useful for aiming the gun though.

Edit -- on the T-34-85 the panoramic sight isn't set up to aim the gun, that's only a feature on the 76 and Kv-1 with the pointy periscope bumps.

[John Kettler]

Flanker15,

The T-34 I was describing was a T-34/76, not a T-34/85. Pointy periscope bumps, eh? Remarkable, isn't it, how so much military capability resides in such seemingly insignificant protrusions? I say this as someone who used to concern himself with such matters professionally.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Flanker15]

Here's a pic of the '43 turret, the sticking up bit with the little hole on the front at the front left is the gun's panoramic sight, it's the model that can be used to aim the gun aswell. The gunner/commander also has another panoramic sight on this model ontop of his 85 style cupula this model can't aim the gun and replaced all station's panoramics on the 85 model. The blob on the back is the air vent.

Here's a captured '41 model, it's been fitted with another panoramic sight of the same model for the loader but it would just be used for observation. Most of them didn't have the second sight fitted but there's a space where it could go. The bump in the middle is the air vent.

[JasonC]

Good stuff guys.

I believe the first Russian tank fitted with a separate panoramic periscope that could be used to adjust the gun was way back at the BT-7. Not all the Russian tankers were wild about the system, though, because it is more complex than a simple sight slaved to the gun barrel, and that gave inexperienced tankers something else to screw up. But they had the technology for it in the 1930s.

On US Shermans, the gunner had a separate periscope that was not magnified, while the magnified gunsight proper was slaved to the gun. The tank commander would hand off a bearing to the gunner - "target Panzer IV, bearing 135 degree, about 800 yards" e.g. - and the gunner would first pick it up in his periscope. Then traverse the turret and switch to the telescopic when he was close, to ensure it was in his narrower field of view , magnified. That was more complex for the crew but at least had the benefit of wide angle field of vision for target acquisition.

From what I have seen, the German gunners usually had 2 magnification settings they could switch between, but the lowest was like 3x. That gave them comparative tunnel vision for target acquisition. On the other hand the tank commanders had the benefit of excellent cupolas with multiple vision ports, giving them pretty good all around views even while buttoned. Of course the glass in the Germans sights was also best in the world, so clearer views (to spot targets in cover, with camo etc) and better range estimation, once that gunner's tunnel view was on the right area. Still it could make them slower to engage initially.

The soft systems in tanks are not nearly as well covered as gun and armor specs and vehicle mechanicals like speed and ground pressure and the like. But they definitely matter. A lot of the early war French stuff e.g. was just awful on this sort of thing, compounded by small crews and overtasked tank commanders, lack of communications gear, etc.

[c3k]

Another item would be the ability to fine-lay the turret, hence the gun, in azimuth. (Elevation controls are also important.)

The T34 had an electric motor and gear traverse. It was notorious for being imprecise and not holding the azimuth it stopped on. That's not a good gunnery trait. I -believe- it had two speeds. I may be wrong. (Compare that with a hydraulic traverse with an infinitely adjustable speed: that makes it much easier to fine-lay the traverse.)

A lot of designs look fantastic on paper: the devil's in the details.