direct fire mortar question

[marka]

I see discussions of "direct firing" of mortars, and I'm not sure what that means. I understand using the mortar in the "usual" way: a HQ unit clicks on the "indirect fire" icon, selects an available mortar, selects Area/Point/Linear, sets the target, etc. However, if you just select a mortar, and give it a Target command to an enemy unit in its LOS, will is start lobbing shells? To what does that correspond in real life? Does the mortar fire in its usual high arc, with the firing team doing its own spotting? Or, do they turn the tube horizontal, and fire as a flat trajectory weapon would?

As a mortar is fired by dropping a shell into the muzzle, I don't see how it could be fired in anything but a high arc. However, last I checked, I didn't know quite everything there is to know about anything.

[Erwin]

Yes.

Still high arc. You can see that in the game.

Also, note that some smaller mortars like the US 50mm and the Brit 2" (and Italian 45mm IIRC) can ONLY be fired as a direct fire weapon.

Note also that mortars can fire at targets that are actually beyond their LOS. So, for example these mortars are useful at firing beyond hedges that your regular small armed infantry cannot see (or often target).

[marka]

Now you're getting me confused, again. When you say the US 50mm can ONLY be fired as a direct fire weapon, is that "high arc, spotting by mortar team itself", or "flat trajectory"? It seems like a flat trajectory mortar could more easily be called a "cannon"?

If the mortar can fire at targets beyond its LOS, how does that show up in the game? Do you select "Area Target" at the obstruction, and it lobs shells just beyond?

[Baneman]

Now you're getting me confused, again. When you say the US 50mm can ONLY be fired as a direct fire weapon, is that "high arc, spotting by mortar team itself", or "flat trajectory"? It seems like a flat trajectory mortar could more easily be called a "cannon"?

If the mortar can fire at targets beyond its LOS, how does that show up in the game? Do you select "Area Target" at the obstruction, and it lobs shells just beyond?

All mortars are "high arc", but the 50mm mortars are so small that they can't be used in the indirect-fire menu - in the field they were meant as close support for their squad/platoon.

Note that their range is actually quite short - about 500m in fact, so bear that in mind if you get the situation where you've told your men to fire at an enemy location and they seem to be refusing to do so.

High arc doesn't necessarily mean long range

Direct fire for any mortar is, as you suspected, merely drawing a target line to where you want the hurt to land. It can be area fire or aimed at a specific enemy unit - just remember that anything you can see can also see you, so ideally one tries to keep the mortars out of range of enemy small arms.

It will take a mortar team about 1-3 rounds to "get on target", so it will typically take 1 turn before they start firing at full speed - note also that they can burn through their ammo load quite quickly once they are on target, so if you want to restrict that, use the "Target Light" command - then they will wait until each round hits before firing the next one - that can be useful.

Firing "beyond their LoS" is just the game giving you a chance to target things "a bit" beyond their nominal LoS eg. behind a hedge - in real life you'd tell your mortar to fire over the hedge, but in game normally you need explicit LoS to a target location. Thus the game fudges it slightly for mortars to keep it realistic and will let your mortar draw a blue targeting line a little beyond what any other unit in that location would be able to.

This "slightly beyond LoS" also applies to indirect artillery - the Forward Observer can call it in, again, slightly past where any other unit could draw a targeting line.

Hope that helps

[womble]

Now you're getting me confused, again. When you say the US 50mm can ONLY be fired as a direct fire weapon, is that "high arc, spotting by mortar team itself", or "flat trajectory"? It seems like a flat trajectory mortar could more easily be called a "cannon"?

If the mortar can fire at targets beyond its LOS, how does that show up in the game? Do you select "Area Target" at the obstruction, and it lobs shells just beyond?

Part of the confusion there is that the US light mortar is a 60mm, and it can be used in both "called fire mission with remote spotter" and in what's perhaps more distinctively referred to as "direct lay" (whether it's more correct I couldn't say, but it draws the distinction between MG or ATG style direct flat-trajectory fire and the lobbed arc of mortars). The german 50mm, Brit 2" and Italian 47mm Brixia are only usable in "direct lay".

Edit: what "direct lay" represents is the crew chief putting the weapon's sights directly on something he can see (and maybe giving it one vernier notch extra range to drop his eggs behind a hedge), as opposed to just working off a range and bearing as given by a remote spotter to hit something completely out of sight. It's still a lobbed trajectory shot, though sometimes it's less than 45 degrees. Mortars used variable propellant charges as part of their range determination, and this is modelled by the game.

[Erwin]

"just remember that anything you can see can also see you..."

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here, but IIRC, a mortar of the type that we've been talking about is capable of direct fire at a target that is out of its LOS.

So, assuming you have placed your mortar cleverly, in this case unless the target is another mortar or FO, they CAN'T see or fire at your mortar.

[ScoutPL]

Everyone is adding to this with fairly accurate information. Allow me to put the bow on it.

Mortars are "high angle" weapons. Drop the round down the tube it goes up in the air and falls almost perpendicular to your target. This is highly valuable when trying to damage an opponent behind a wall, hedge, trench, etc., when direct fire isn't doing anything but bouncing off their cover. It is also preferable for thus type of target over a rifle grenade (which has such a low trajectory it is practically direct fire) or artillery which fires "low angle" and might not land exactly where you want it (overshoot) or terrain might prevent it being effective (for example, the enemy position is on the back side of a ridgeline and the arty cant clear the ridgeline and drop steep enough to hit the target).

"Direct Lay" vs indirect is more about the observer. In direct lay the mortar crew themselves are spotting their rounds and bringing them onto the target. Anything fired through a remote observer is considered indirect.

Interestingly, company level mortar systems (the 60mm variety) are considered gold in Afghanistan. They were often the only weapon system that could reach up on a mountain top and behind that rock formation from which the Taliban was pouring small arms and RPG fire. Modern US 60mm mortars (which I think is actually manufactured in or a copy of a British mortar system) also have a trigger system included. That means the gunner can patrol with a round in the tube and fire it almost immediately.

[Baneman]

"just remember that anything you can see can also see you..."

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here, but IIRC, a mortar of the type that we've been talking about is capable of direct fire at a target that is out of its LOS.

So, assuming you have placed your mortar cleverly, in this case unless the target is another mortar or FO, they CAN'T see or fire at your mortar.

You're right, Erwin, but that bit was referring to "or aimed at a specific enemy unit"

[womble]

You're right, Erwin, but that bit was referring to "or aimed at a specific enemy unit"

Which you wouldn't be able to actually see if it needed the "extra bit" of target range that FOs/mortars get. It's possible, with FOs and HQs to area target a bit too far. They can nominate an AS "just" in defilade for targeting, but if you actually want them to fire at it, their flat-LOF personal weapons can't, so they don't. Not that you usually want FOs to fire much, but HQs can be useful close up, with their SMGs. Not that you want to be doing much area firing with SMGs unless the HQ team has plundered a half track or something... It's mostly a potentiality more than something you actually see happening.

So if your mortar has actually spotted something, that something can probably spot your mortar right back. Which can be tolerable, especially with the more-than-a-click range of the 60mm. Unless it's an ATG.