Exit zones in QBs

[ScoutPL]

One of the few frustrations I still run into with CM is the inability to disengage and withdraw in QBs. A lot of games devolve into a sort of seek and destroy as the victorious player attempts to track down each of his opponents remaining units in a sort of Malmedy redux. Or the defeated player is forced to run and hide until time runs out or simply surrender and forfeit all of his remaining force to the VP count. I find it very unrealistic that any commander would continue to try to hold ground after taking 50% or more in casualties (even fewer realistically).

A much more palatable option would be to have the option of withdrawing your force from the map. With exit zones on their friendly side, each player would have the option of fighting a retrograde/withdrawal when things turned against them. The current Exit Objectives are setup to support this. You can exit your units but wont receive any points for doing so. However, you also deprive your opponent of the extra points he would receive by reducing you to the last man or forcing a surrender. It adds another dimension to the planning and play for each player as well.

So I would strongly advocate adding exit zones to the QB maps in future versions (which currently consist of only location and unit casualty victory points). Thoughts?

PS I haven't been on the forums for awhile so if someone remembers a thread where this was already discussed please forward me the link.

[womble]

Current Exit objectives aren't very good for "arbitrary" use by QBs because, as they stand, any units that don't exit, and are part of a destroy objective (so all of the units that don't exit, in a QB) are considered destroyed at game end. So if there were exits you'd have to use them, else your opponent would get the whole unit VP chunk at time-expiry, even if you'd fought him to a standstill and taken next to no casualties doing it...

I agree that there's room for a new kind of Exit, but I can see that there would be issues in making them a default for QBs, which are meant to be quick-and-dirty. If you've had enough, but don't want to surrender, you can offer a cease fire, though that has to be by email/H2HH chat, as there's no in-game notification. Which would be another nice addition...

[ScoutPL]

"Current Exit objectives aren't very good for "arbitrary" use by QBs because, as they stand, any units that don't exit, and are part of a destroy objective (so all of the units that don't exit, in a QB) are considered destroyed at game end. "

I don't believe that is correct. For a QB map (even one taken from a scenario or purpose built from scratch), the only victory conditions that apply are those related to "occupy" terrain objectives and force count. And by that I mean the parameters (50% equals 100 points, etc) not the victory points attributed to a single unit. Mainly because I imagine its beyond the QB construct to select units at random and assign them victory points. All of the other victory conditions on the map are disregarded. At least that's what the manual says, I may have missed an update somewhere though, that changed the rule. If my understanding is correct, ADDING exit objectives would not have the affect you brought up.

[ASL Veteran]

I don't believe that is correct.

Womble is correct. All units that have destroy points associated with them and do not exit the map before the time expires will give those destroy points to your opponent. The only way that can be avoided is if no points are assigned to enemy units. If you have no points assigned to destroying enemy units then of course no points would be awarded to the enemy for non exit. So if you prefer to play scenarios or QBs that have no victory conditions other than terrain objectives then you can indeed fire away and play with an exit zone.

[ScoutPL]

Well no I can't, because, at least as I understand the manual, QBs don't recognize exit objective locations on maps used in them.

Also, I think that the issue with unit vp only applies to units with specific victory points allocated to them by the scenario designer (which also don't apply to QBs).

As an example of what I would like to see: If the parameters for a map are set at say 100 points for destroying 70% of the defending force (which does carry from a map into a QB), but the defender manages to withdraw 35% of his forces than the attacker wouldn't get the 100 points.

That to me sounds like a worthy effort for a defender. If you can't hold on to your positions, than try to live to fight another day.

I am asking if it would be possible for there to be a QB withdrawal option in future versions of the game.

[ScoutPL]

From the manual (v. 2.11):

Exit: Exit Zones allow all friendly units to leave the map. There are no points

awarded for leaving a map. However, units that are part of an enemy Destroy/

Destroy All Unit Objective (see next section) and do NOT leave the map are

credited to the enemy as if they were destroyed.

Unit based objectives: There can be any number of unit-based objectives in a scenario. The objective can be tied to one single unit (such as a tank or an HQ unit) or to entire formations (such as a platoon or even a company), or to a mix of various units. (These are set by the scenario designer.)

Force wide objectives: These are the victory parameters for a scenario. The scenario designer assigns victory points to each objective individually. Options include:

- Casualties (friendly and enemy): if the player keeps his own casualties under

this percentage (relative to the entire force in the scenario) or pushes the enemy above another percentage, he is awarded the respective victory points.

- Condition (friendly and enemy): if the player keeps his percentage of wounded, incapacitated and routed soldiers below this percentage, or pushes the above another percentage, he is awarded the respective victory points.

And finally: Quick Battles -

Victory conditions for Quick Battles are much more limited than for Campaigns and Battles. Only two types of victory conditions are available:

1 - Terrain objective zones. These are always considered as OCCUPY zones. (Exit Zones are ignored, currently.)

2 - A set number of points are rewarded for causing enemy unit casualties. The more casualties caused, the more points are awarded. (This is a "Force wide objective.")

I dont believe forces withdrawn from the map would count as casualties (as the rules stand) or that they should count in favor of the withdrawing player. I simply believe it would offer a more realistic option to the defeated player.

[Doug Williams]

Good thread, Gunhappy. I agree that QBs can sometimes devolve into a slaughter because of the inability of the losing side to withdraw. It would be nice to see solution to this in the game engine.

Of course, the gentleman's way to deal with it is to Cease Fire. If I'm the one losing the game, I try to move all my men out of any victory locations and then ask for a cease fire. If I'm winning, I always agree to a cease fire if my opponent asks for one.

[ASL Veteran]

This is what I just said

All units that have destroy points associated with them and do not exit the map before the time expires will give those destroy points to your opponent.

and you just quoted this from the manual

From the manual (v. 2.11):

Exit: Exit Zones allow all friendly units to leave the map. There are no points

awarded for leaving a map. However, units that are part of an enemy Destroy/

Destroy All Unit Objective (see next section) and do NOT leave the map are

credited to the enemy as if they were destroyed.

Unit based objectives: There can be any number of unit-based objectives in a scenario. The objective can be tied to one single unit (such as a tank or an HQ unit) or to entire formations (such as a platoon or even a company), or to a mix of various units. (These are set by the scenario designer.)

For some reason you then quote the section for force wide objectives which fall under the parameters portion of the victory conditions. These have absolutely nothing to do with exit locations at all because they are a fixed percentage of an enemy force, condition, or ammunition.

Force wide objectives: These are the victory parameters for a scenario. The scenario designer assigns victory points to each objective individually. Options include:

- Casualties (friendly and enemy): if the player keeps his own casualties under

this percentage (relative to the entire force in the scenario) or pushes the enemy above another percentage, he is awarded the respective victory points.

- Condition (friendly and enemy): if the player keeps his percentage of wounded, incapacitated and routed soldiers below this percentage, or pushes the above another percentage, he is awarded the respective victory points.

And finally: Quick Battles -

Victory conditions for Quick Battles are much more limited than for Campaigns and Battles. Only two types of victory conditions are available:

1 - Terrain objective zones. These are always considered as OCCUPY zones. (Exit Zones are ignored, currently.)

2 - A set number of points are rewarded for causing enemy unit casualties. The more casualties caused, the more points are awarded. (This is a "Force wide objective.")

You then finish up with this

I dont believe forces withdrawn from the map would count as casualties (as the rules stand) or that they should count in favor of the withdrawing player. I simply believe it would offer a more realistic option to the defeated player.

Which seems to correspond remarkably with what I just said

If you have no points assigned to destroying enemy units then of course no points would be awarded to the enemy for non exit. So if you prefer to play scenarios or QBs that have no victory conditions other than terrain objectives then you can indeed fire away and play with an exit zone.

The only thing I left out of my paragraph was the part about parameters or 'force wide' objectives. Of course those are different from the destroy objectives that I first mentioned and don't apply to the exit locations.

So really I'm not sure what you are on about unless you want exit objectives included in every QB map as a default victory condition because what you are quoting from the manual isn't any different from what both Womble and I indicated.

[womble]

From the manual (v. 2.11):

Exit: Exit Zones...units that are part of an enemy Destroy/

Destroy All Unit Objective (see next section) and do NOT leave the map are

credited to the enemy as if they were destroyed.

Unit based objectives: ...

[added from the manual, p16]

Unfortunately, I think you might have found a bit of misleading text. The QB force condition isn't a "Casualties" VC, it's a "Destroy" condition. Having the QB description refer to "causing casulaties" and then compounding it by referring to "Force wide objective" is what's tripping you up.

My reasoning behind this assertion is thus:

"Casualty" conditions are "threshold" conditions: if you achieve whatever level of casualties (above or below, depending on whether it's enemy or friendly casualties we're talking about), you get the whole blob of VP. The force component of a QB's VPs is a progressive number "... The more damage you cause to those units, the more points you earn." It's a "Destroy" condition that applies to the whole enemy force, hence the inappropriate use of "Force wide" even though that is implied to be a specific class of victory condition which would include Casualties, Condition, Ammo and any bonus XPs.

As such, any units that did not Exit (as it stands at the moment) would be considered yummy VP for your opponent, even if you'd beaten him worse than a red-headed stepchild.

And just to restate. I'm not arguing for the status quo, just explaining what it actually is, and how that affects the current Exit mechanic. And, I'm not a BFC rep, so I could still be wrong, but I do know for absolute certain that the force component of QB VPs is a progressive quantity, not a threshold one, and that Casualties VCs are thresholds.

[ScoutPL]

So really I'm not sure what you are on about unless you want exit objectives included in every QB map as a default victory condition because what you are quoting from the manual isn't any different from what both Womble and I indicated.

You are correct ASL Vet, we agree on what the manual says, hard to argue with the written word. I responded to you and Womble (including the quotes from the manual) because I was trying to make clear Unit Destroy objectives have nothing to do with QBs. And yes, you are also correct that what I am advocating is adding exit locations to ALL QB maps.

Womble: "Casualty" conditions are "threshold" conditions: if you achieve whatever level of casualties (above or below, depending on whether it's enemy or friendly casualties we're talking about), you get the whole blob of VP. The force component of a QB's VPs is a progressive number "... The more damage you cause to those units, the more points you earn." It's a "Destroy" condition that applies to the whole enemy force, hence the inappropriate use of "Force wide" even though that is implied to be a specific class of victory condition which would include Casualties, Condition, Ammo and any bonus XPs."

Thanks for the clarification because the manual is vague, since the wording makes it possible to make multiple assumptions about what actually happens. And if I am understanding your text correctly (which is something I seem to be having trouble with this entire thread) than in the current mechanics, just having an exit zone means you have to exit your entire force or your opponent gets the points, even if you are the "winner" and control all the terrain objectives. So exiting isn't optional its mandatory.

[womble]

Thanks for the clarification because the manual is vague, since the wording makes it possible to make multiple assumptions about what actually happens. And if I am understanding your text correctly (which is something I seem to be having trouble with this entire thread) than in the current mechanics, just having an exit zone means you have to exit your entire force or your opponent gets the points, even if you are the "winner" and control all the terrain objectives. So exiting isn't optional its mandatory.

The more damage you cause to

those units, the more points you earn. Apart from "...your opponent gets the points you didn't exit..." ( my clarification in bold, which is probably what you meant, but I'm just trying to be both accurate and precise...

It's an unfortunate use of a "reserved term" (if I may term a manual section heading such) in a more colloquial sense.

[ScoutPL]

OK, so obviously I used the wrong terminology for this thread. While this has been a useful education (if a little frustrating), I should have just said, "Hey, I'd really like to see an option to withdraw forces from a QB!"

[womble]

Well, I appear to have really borked that last post... It's not how I meant it. But I think you've got the message, Gunhappy

I agree that there's a visceral need for a "retreat" gate, even if it's just your "friendly map edge" by default, and all it does is put the units out of your opponent's reach. Fleeing troops not under your control could rout towards and off it, too.