CM hive mind: flak traverse rates

[akd]

I am looking for the max traverse rates for the systems below without much luck. I need the actual traverse rate (e.g. degrees/sec) not degrees per handwheel crank.

2cm Flak 38 / SdKfz. 10/5

3.7cm Flak 36 / SdKfz. 7/2

2cm Flakvierling 38 / SdKfz. 7/1

Flakpanzer IV Möbelwagen and Wirbelwind (if different than above, but I don't think it should be)

Please don't spam thread with links to tangential material.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I don't know much about these weapons, but since the traverse was hand-cranked the limiting factor would presumably be the right arm of a soldier.

But I did find a video that may be suggestive, in particular between the 39 and 47 second marks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcI0kuARYSk

[akd]

I don't know much about these weapons, but since the traverse was hand-cranked the limiting factor would presumably be the right arm of a soldier.

Not sure about that. There is a US technical manual that gives the max traverse rate for the Flakvierling 38 as 22.5 degrees per hand wheel turn and gives a max force for the handwheel of, I think, 13.2 pounds, so this would suggest there was a limit.

But I did find a video that may be suggestive, in particular between the 39 and 47 second marks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcI0kuARYSk

Period video is tricky since you never know if the playback speed is quite right.

This video is even better as it seems to show the handwheel of a Flak 38 at max traverse, but again, we'd need to know the film speed is correct:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FEItGE0SqCE

[John Kettler]

akd,

This is from a groggy discussion on the Aces High board. The discussion is over the real Wirbelwind and how it's modeled in the game. This looks pertinent. Deliberately broken link.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.usual/smf/index.php?topic=274097.75

Smokey23

"Well bruv i just happen to be holding a technical manual for the Möbelwagen, Wirbelwind, Ostwind and Kugelblitz printed by the Lodz ghetto printing house 1944 and it says right here in plain english after translation that " The traverse and elevation of the turret was hydraulic, making a full elevation in little over 3.5 seconds, and a full traverse in 8.5 to 10.0 second". But i guess a technical manual dated 1944 and haveing to be translated from german to english is wrong . All this dribble about the turret being hand cranked is false. So wheres the bias?? I can back up my talk with facts can you??"

To which he receives this response.

Batch

"while I obviously dont have your hand manual for review..... I can say that "historically accurate" is obviously being subjected by user opinion in this case...... I looked at countless sources and could not find one with a traverse rate listed...... I did however find nearly every source citing that it was a powered turret and used a handcranck as a backup .......... and I did see a few actual footage videos that show it traversing at a fairly good speed"

Not perfect, but it's a start.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

akd,

TM-E9-228 Free from scribd.xxx

/doc/112423072/1943-TM-E9-228-2-cm-Flakvierling-38-German-20-mm-Antiaicraft-Gun-Four-Barreled-Mount

This is the Technical Manual for the 2cm Flakvierling. No Flak weapon other than the 88 in this series. TM-E9-228 is exhaustive and completely covers the weapon from how it works, how to load, aim and fire it, to what it shoots and how to maintain the gun and mount. Regret to inform you there's no standard traverse rate given. See page 44. What it says is that if the friction brake's not engaged, the traverse rate is 22.5 degrees/handwheel turn, but if the brake's engaged, it's 7.5 degrees/turn.

Similarly, for elevation it's 12 degrees/handwheel turn with no catch engaged and 4 degrees/turn with it.

You've got the technical data, but you also need to know the German light Flak training standards. They must have existed, and you know how methodical the Germans were. I'd imagine there was some minimum number of handwheel turns/unit time, with a faster cranking rate being gravy.

These look like valuable references.

Recognition Handbook of German Armored & Tracked Vehicles

Armor Plate Press

"A special Armor Plate Press reprint of the May 1945 US Army field guide and identification manual of German Armored and Tracked Vehicles. A unique look that compiles the sum total of Allied intelligence on German AFVs by the end of the war in Europe. Very complete with an incredible wealth of detail and technical data for researchers, modelers and WWII vehicle enthusiasts (providing both US and Metric weights and measures). Interesting photos, some rarely seen views with one photo for each vehicle. 200 pages, black and white, softcover with easy, “lay-flat” coil binding."

Also,

Flakpanzers (same firm)

by Tom Laemlein

"While Germany is noted for the development of aggressive armored warfare tactics, the Wehrmacht was also obliged to develop ways to provide mobile anti-aircraft weapons to cover the advance of their far-ranging Panzers and Panzer Grenadiers. Beginning as early as 1940 specialized Flakpanzers were available in small numbers, and by 1944 Flakpanzers had grown into a full-fledged arm of the Panzerwaffe. This unique photo study shows all manner of German mobile flak vehicles, ranging from halftracks fitted with 20mm and 37mm AA guns, to the specially constructed AA tanks like the Mobelwagen and Wirbelwind of the later war years."

Regards,

John Kettler

[akd]

akd,

This is from a groggy discussion on the Aces High board. The discussion is over the real Wirbelwind and how it's modeled in the game. This looks pertinent. Deliberately broken link.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.usual/smf/index.php?topic=274097.75

Thanks for this. Thread seems to include at least two sources giving a traverse rate for the Wirbelwind of 27-28º/sec. by handwheel, with some disagreement as to whether there were "later" versions with powered traverse allowing up to 60º/sec. However, I wonder if this "powered later versions" stuff is confusion with the Kugelblitz, which certainly did have a powered turret.

So if the Wirbelwind had 27-28º/sec. traverse by the handwheel on the Flakvierling mount, then presumably the standard Flakvierling (static or SdKfz. 7/1) would be the same, or possibly somewhat faster since there was less armor to move.

Regret to inform you there's no standard traverse rate given.

You're regretting inform me of what I've already posted? :/

[Vanir Ausf B]

For what it's worth, that matches up remarkably well with that archive footage of the SdKfz 7/2 I posted. It looked to be about at 90° turn, and going by the time stamp took about three and a half seconds, which works out to 26° per second.

[John Kettler]

akd,

I knew you got the numbers from somewhere, but since you didn't cite the source, I did my own digging. What I provided, short of going to a museum with a working one to play with it and/or somehow locating the standards to which I alluded and/or all but miraculously finding the training standards, a knowledgeable veteran or, perhaps, and/ oral or video interview with same (and who's going to ask such uninteresting to most questions?), what I presented is the best you're likely to get.

As noted earlier, there is no document in English covering the 3.7mm Flak, because no such investigation was ever made by the U.S.. The British may've done one. Also, what isn't factored into the hand cranking equation is what happens when the adrenalin's flowing. If you watch the footage, some of the crews appear to be on speed. Whir go the frantically, yet expertly turned handwheels! In all the footage I've seen, I've yet to see a flub. To the contrary, to use the vernacular, these guys are beasts!

If that manual for the Moebelwagen, Ostwind, Wirbelwind and Kugelblitz exists and can be IDed (suggest contacting the guy who posted about it), it'd be practically priceless. I did read something somewhere about the security instructions for the Moebelwagen, which was on combat trials, explicitly required the destruction of both the AFV and the manuals if capture was going to occur. In turn, this suggests at least one other kind of manual, probably earlier than the compendium listed above, exists solely for the Moebelwagen. That mention, I believe, is in whatever thread we discussed the moving van. I'd be most interested in seeing either or both, especially if i could read German. Have you contacted the museums, such as Saumur, which have the wee beasties you seek? I bet they have a lot of specialized documentation to go with their AFVs. Certainly, they can definitively tell you what kind of powered drive (mit specs) ran the primary traversing and elevation gear on those Flak Panzers so equipped and may have the numbers you seek. Perhaps one or more of our CM colleagues overseas can stop by the happy AFV abodes. As if an excuse were needed! Good luck with your marvelously groggy hunt for the truth!

Regards,

John Kettler