Private Ryan Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 I was just wanderin what kind of gun did the M-18 Hellcat have? I know it's a tank destroyer, but one destroyed my Tiger from 480 meters away, in the Last Defence. One hell of a shot in my book! Thanks, Pvt. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Select the Hellcat and hit ENTER. You will get a detailed unit screen which shows tons of stats, and also the gun. It's a 76mm and powerful enough to juussst penetrate the Tigers front armor at 0 degrees at 100 meters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risc Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 My only grippe is that it killed my Tiger from 890m as well as both Stugs ....I have never really fought a lot of battles befor with M18 so I don't know how things should go...don't know mych about M18s but it definitely hurts that in CM most of the time the M18s will ripp my armor to pieces... Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Check out the Tigers, StuGs and M18s stats and compare the armor values with the penetration data given for the M18s gun. You will see that the Tiger is not nearly as invincible as one might think, and CM models this perfectly. Note also that the penetration values decrease tremendously with slope! Soon you will learn to use this for your protection - it's not ALWAYS a good thing to face an AT Gun dead straight. Oblique angles have the advantage of increasing the chance for ricochets... uh oh, I am giving out too many hints again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 The first time I played 'Defense' as the US forces, I managed to cath the Tiger in a crossfire of about 22 degrees on each side, and the Tiger was slightly elevated. Ovre a 2 minute period, the Tiger got hit at about 500m range 7 times. All it did was spook him up a bit and he reversed. The Hellcat is nice, but vulnerable, esp at close ranges. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 LOL.. Tiger invincibility myth destroyed. The Hellcat has an EXCELLENT 76mm gun which can easily penetrate the Tiger at 500 metres and using HVAP can kill it out to a considerably greater distance. In any case, taking slope into account the PANTHER had greater armour protection than the Tiger (frontally). The M18s are among the best Tiger-killers out there IMO. Only the Sherman Jumbo76 (very rare), the Fireflies and anything with a 90mm gun ( the Jackson ? ) are better IMO. USE the enter button to find out data. CM has all the data in there and accurate. Many of the games we've all played haven't been that accurate and have engendered many myths. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Oh BTW remember that angle of offset is taken into account for firing. E.g. It is actually MORE difficult to penetrate a Tiger's front mantlet it you hit it from the side ( a 30 or 45 degree offset for example) than if you are firing directly at the front. So, it isn't JUST range which is important. The type of shell fired, the location of the hit and the 3 dimensional angle of incidence are all important also. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary T Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 I managed to get the Stugs with my Hellcats and registered (in the space of a couple of minutes)10+ hits on the Tiger from 750 metres+. Most of the rounds glanced off or shattered. The Tiger crew kept their cool and calmly destroyed my Hellcats one after the other. So in this game the old Tiger myth held true. However when I took command I managed to get it knocked out by a concealed Bazooka team. BTW anyone else find it difficult to hit those pesky HT's with bazooka's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Gary T, aid:. BTW anyone else find it difficult to hit those pesky HT's with bazooka's? Well, I think my bazookas and panzerschrecks hit-miss ratio is 0-70 (probably totally exaggerated - everything is still a blur having the CM Demo). The only hit came at about 30 meters from a panzerschreck on a Sherman. About hitting pesky halftracks with bazooka: They move quick and are usually 100 meters or more away from any Bazooka team. My guess is that the chance of hitting the halftrack at 100 meters is pretty slim. Chance of hitting the halftrack while moving must be near zero. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Well, this is the way things were. Sometimes a Tiger would brew up after the first hit, other times it would take out an entire armoured battalion BTW bazookas etc.. Panzerschrecks are ok for 100 metre distant shots. Everything else I prefer to have fire at 50 metres.. BTW don't forget GRENADES can kill HTs.. Rule 1: Cause ALL tanks to button otherwise they will spot and eliminate your bazooka teams. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 Although it was mentioned by several in an oblique way, nobody actually came out and said it- orient your tanks so that the left or right front corners are pointed at the shooter (10-11 o'clock, and 1-2 o'clock). This increases armour protection significantly. This is discussed in great detail in the actual Tiger field manual, "Tiger Fibel" (Tiger Bible). I have only played the game once- still playing it, actually. When the Hellcats appeared at the crest of the hill, the TacAI took over my Tiger and destroyed two in one minute at 780m. I was hit once in the mantlet (the shot shattered) out of four shots fired. On the next turn, I duked it out with the last Hellcat, firing three times to his two, and destroyed it. I'm writing this so people can compare how the same basic scenario plays out differently given only slightly differing conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 For comparison, in my first game I played the Germans. My Tiger destroyed a Hellcat, with two shells 76mm shells shattering in the meantime. The 3rd Hellcat shell killed the Tiger, and one of my Stugs wrecked a second Hellcat. A few seconds later the surving Hellcat killed the Stug. There was then a 5-7 minute cat-and-mouse game, until the Hellcat wandered into a kill zone I had setup with my Stug. During the middle of this duel an 81mm mortar shell called in to suppress the Hellcat killed it. (At least I think that's what happened - hard to tell with CM's fog of war.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 When I played this scenario, the Hellcats took out one of my StuG III's right away, and immobilized my Tiger with a hit to the tread. Thankfully, I had positioned my Tiger on the road so the front right corner was facing towards the Hellcats. The Tiger was able to take out all three Hellcats in two minutes, while shaking off 4 direct hits (2 turret, 2 front hull). All told, the tank battle only lasted 3 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted October 30, 1999 Share Posted October 30, 1999 It's interesting to see how different the results are from game to game. I was getting pretty well wiped by the AI until those Hellcats came in. An AI Stug had toasted the bazooka team on the flank, and had free rein over there (it was a little unsettling to see the bazooka team there one second, then an HE explosion, and then nothing....) The AI then started to use the Stug to pound the guys on the other side of the map. The Hellcats came in. One got taken out by the other Stug eraly, the second though penetrated the Tigers turret on the first shot, and the crew abandoned, it then took out a second Stug nearby with a critical hit, and finally took out the last Stug on the other flank with a third shot, in one turn. 3 shots 3 kills. Needless to say, it turned the battle right around. The third Hellcat took out two halftracks, and a third halftrack was hit by a mortar shot. I couldn't complain about a 6-1 kill ratio that turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted October 31, 1999 Share Posted October 31, 1999 My Hellcat story: I had already taken out one StuG with a bazooka. I had raced a bazooka, 44 Rifle squad, and an HQ into the small stone house that sits outside of the US setup zone by the paved road. By turn 6 or so, the units in the house were under severe fire, but with one shot and one man left, the bazooka team made a great flank shot and killed the StuG. It died next turn, but he is definitely getting a posthumous medal. The other StuG was at the edge of the dirt road and the Tiger was placed way in the back corner behind the StuG. My Hellcats appeared. I checked kill chances. Good against the StuG, nil against the Tiger. I had all three Hellcats target the StuG and ordered fast movement for all three down the road and hopefully out of view of the Tiger. It worked. It took 18 seconds for the Hellcats to start moving. In the first 10 seconds the StuG was destroyed and my Hellcats raced out of view of the Tiger. The Tiger then resorted to shooting up the Rifle platoon that also arrives as reinforcements, pinning two squads. The Hellcats raced down the road and turned left as soon as they crossed the bridge. The idea was to scoot around the edge of the map way away from the Tiger and drive down the ridge near the wall. The Germans had some 1/2-tracks in the trees on the German right flank as well as a platoon of infantry on the edges of the forest. I was moving the three Hellcats along the edge of the map and I was hunting two of them towards the only visible 1/2-track (one had already been killed by mortar fire). I was riding along in the lead Hellcat when I noticed that it had stopped, reversed, and pivoted to its right. The Tiger had moved out of its hiding place. Then the turn ended. Next turn I targeted the Tiger with all three Hellcats and gave movement orders to position them better. I was only 600m away instead of 1000m so I actually had a chance. A furious gun duel ensued. The Tiger was still moving into place. 34 seconds into the turn a shell whizzes by a Hellcat. I had to stop and replay that several times to get a great screenshot of the shell about 2 feet from the tank. And, I swear, the crew members are looking right at the shell as it goes by their tank. I think that spurred them on because 9 seconds later they had killed the Tiger with a front hull hit. I punched the lead Hellcat into high gear and raced it after the 1/2-track. The second moved down slope a little to provide support for the beleagured infantry defending the wall. The third I hunted all the way across the map to provide assitance to the troops defending the lone objective house by the dirt road whose defending platoon was down to about 12 guys. The second Hellcat killed the 1/2-track before harassing the infantry. The third Hellcat staved off a potential assault of the house. It caused a squad to think twice and forced it to race back into the cover of the forest. (The reinforcement platoon was heading there as fast as it could). The first Hellcat was sent around the Germans in the forest and down the paved road the attempt to catch another 1/2-track that had positioned itself on the road between the forest. I had completely forgotten about a fourth halftrack that had kept itself hidden in the German rear. The Hellcat surprised it and the halftrack tried to make a hasty retreat. It doesn't go far before it dies. The halftrack on the road was knocked out from a final burst from the Hellcat's .50 cal MG. It then had fun shooting up two MG teams at close range. The other two Hellcats quicky ran out of MG and HE ammo so I resorted to shooting AP ammo at infantry. I don't know how effective it is, but their mere presence made me feel better. The Germands surrendered on turn 26 with 14 guys left. One cute thing I noticed with the Hellcat. It was rotating its turret tracking an unknown infantry team and when it wsa identified as an FO, the Hellcat rotated away looking for more threatening targets. Jason Oh, the first time I played this scenario as the Americans, all three Hellcats were destroyed in 15 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 One question were are my Tigers APCR shell? yes I know, over kill for M18s but in the 7 Games I've played they keep killing my late war stug. I demand Satisfaction! Oh that reminds me of the time when I 1st used the ambush point. Had a Panzershrek, officer and a Volk section in a depression by the road with all set too hide and targeted at the ambush point 70m ahead. Bugger the uber panzer killer is green so lets off a wild shot that resound with the cry of medic! of an inf section behind the Sherman. I turn into a raving lunitic shouting "reload morons", as the Sherman opens up with its MG's causing the Lt and the SMG section run for the apparent safety of the houses. It got a little confusing, you see my brave moronic panzer hunters fired just as both 88 decided to open up and gain hit's on the turrent's. Of course I began yelling at my Radio man "Why has it not brewed up Hans". I've read a lot of books and they keep on joking about how the dam things are English lighter's"! Hans started rabbiting on about how it's only a 50% chance and of course statistic are never exact. Hans of course will replace that KIA in the Panzersreck team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 By 1944 the Panzergranate 40 tungsten-cored APCR shells issued to Tiger units in 1942 and 43 had been withdrawn from these units as the Tungsten was needed for war material production and it was felt the Tiger's 88mm gun was still effective when only using Panzergranate39 ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnymo Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Anybody else here wondering if Fionn is just making this stuff up as he goes along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Wondering hell, we all know he is making this stuff up. We are just humoring him by not pointing it out < >! Just kidding, Fionn! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risc Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 johnnymo, you think Fionn is smoking something different than we are ? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Nah, I don't use the ganja shell. oops ! Seriously though, tanks and this kind of stuff is my hobby (sad I know) but you'd be amazed the weird stuff I've picked up The Pzgr40 story is actually true.. I don't remember the reference but I'm sure I can find it if you're interested Watch it or I'll lecture you all about why an APCR was really not as good as an APCBC shell at long range.. Now, you've been warned (just kidding). ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverendo Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 I have also played Last Defense from both sides, and I have to tell I wasn't too impressed with the hellcat's armour piercing ability. As far as I ken, we're no longer talking about a 2D game. Top armour is very thin indeed on most tanks, and the Hellcats start at the top of the hill. I have got a pair of upper turret and even top hits from there. It is right that, due to the angle, is easy enough to see the shell ricochet. But if it doesn't, it will surely pierce the tank's top armour. Even Shermans are good tank hunters when firing from the top of a hill (Remember the British Gammon Bombs carried by the paratroopers in Market Garden?) ------------------ Regards Reverendo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 Heh thanks Fionn. I also have the worthless knowledge about the accuracy drop off of the Pzgr 40. But on to my question, did the recall of APCR also include the 7.5cm KwK 42? (Panther gun) Or even the standred 7.5cm KwK40? The inclusion of M26's and Jumbos worry me a great deal along with the inclusion of my Panthers some what sensitive side. Worried! Oh Fionn your a gold mine, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Zeares Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 My Hellcat story: most of the time, they die quickly, killed by the Tiger at long range (900+meters). But in one game, with me playing as the Americans, they were able to take it out. When they showed up, all 3 had clear shots at the Tiger, which was on the main road at around 850 meters. The Hellcat fired almost simultaneously, and got lucky -- one of their shots hit and apparently damaged the Tiger's main gun. During that and the next action phase, the Hellcats hit the Tiger at least 20 times, mostly ricochets (Tiger was at about a 30 degree angle to the 'Cats) or broken shells, but one hit the tracks, immobilizing the Tiger. After two turns of this the Tiger's crew aparently had enough and bailed out. This scenario shows how important luck can be. If they hadn't taken out the Tiger's gun with the first volley, the Hellcats probably would have been wiped out. -- Mike Zeares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 4, 1999 Share Posted November 4, 1999 Good question: Actually no it didn't ALTHOUGH a Panzer unit which had its full complement of Pzgr40 for the KwK42 was a lucky unit. The basic rule of thumb is as follows: The rule for who got Pzgr40 (top of the list = most pzgr40) AT guns 75mm KwK40 75mm KwK42 The simply reason for this was that AT guns were designed PURELY to fight tanks so needed the best shells. The KwK40 had poorer AT penetration than the 42 so it often needed the little boost an APCR shell gave it in the armour penetration stakes. last to get APCR was the 75 KwK42 cause it was as good as the 88 and every APCR shell it got was one less which went to KwK40-equipped tanks. Of course as a TC I would have had my crew buy a few for a couple of bottles of schnapps Wait till you lose a KING TIGER to a Sherman 75 (it happened to me .. Damn side armour ). THEN you'll be afraid and angry ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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