Doug Beman Posted September 5, 1999 Share Posted September 5, 1999 Is this gun going to be in the game? I really don't know much about it, except that it seems the only gun the Allies fielded that could handle TigerIIs. The Pershing-mount saw very limited service, but I thought it was used as an AT gun for a while, anyway. Does anybody have any info on the performance of this one? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 5, 1999 Share Posted September 5, 1999 I know that the 90mm gun was mounted on the M36 Jackson tank destroyer. It began appearing sometime after Normandy fighting. Several M36's were a significant part of the defense of Bastogne/Noville. I know less about the actual armor penetrating capabilities. I think that a typical AP round could penetrate 120mm at 1000 yards (30 degrees from vertical). A HVAP would probably do about 140mm. I could be wrong about these figures, just an educated guess from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 5, 1999 Author Share Posted September 5, 1999 Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten about the various TD mountings. Thanks Pak. Wasn't it in another TD, now that I think of it? I dunno. I'm just wondering what it'll be like in CM (if it is, indeed, in) DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted September 5, 1999 Share Posted September 5, 1999 Here is a brief outline of what my sources show for the M36: The first were redesigned M10A1's using the service 90mm AA gun in a new, power operated turret- the US Ordinance Dept did not use the original M10 turret because they did not want to use counterweights (reason not specified- the Brits used counterweights when they put the 17pdr in the M10 ("Achilles") and it worked fine). The M36B1 was the same turret mounted on an M4A3 chassis, the B2 was on an "Easy- Eight" HVSS chassis). Some of the vital statistics: Armour -Front 86mm, Side 38mm, Rear 38mm -Turret Front 78mm, Turret Sides 32mm 90mm Gun Penetration APCR- 150mm @ 2000m (angle unspecified) APCBC- 85mm @ 2000m AP- ca. 90mm @ 2000m Could also fire HE Max useful range- 3800m 2324 of all versions were eventually built, and was used up until 1954. The crews tried to fight the M36 as a tank and not an SP- a serious mistake considering it's relatively light armour. This was one reason why the US went away from the tank destroyer, and concentrated completely on building tanks. Given the proper conditions (hull down with a good escape route), I would think that the M36 could even rattle the coffee cups in a King Tiger. I see that one source calls this the M36 "Slugger", but all others call it the "Jackson". [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 09-05-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted September 5, 1999 Share Posted September 5, 1999 As an addendum to my last post- the US 90mm AT gun T8 never came out until 1947, due to difficulties in trying to get the weight to an acceptable level. It never got standardized in inventory. [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 09-05-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 6, 1999 Share Posted September 6, 1999 Doug - yes the US 90mm will be in the game, on the M36 Jackson TD, the M26 Pershing tank, and the 90mm AA gun. There are actually two different types of APCBC ammo, an early and late version, with noticeably different capabilities (I don't mean the tungsten round). We'll model that. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannon Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I was under the impression that the Pershing never made it into combat. In "Death Traps", Cooper talks about only 1 Super Pershing M26A1E2 being isssued for experimental combat trials towards the end of the war. Given this I am a bit confused about its inclusion in Combat Mission. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I seem to remember reading that the Pershing did take part in several minor actions close to the end of the war. However, I believe it never took part in any major actions. I'm sure others here will give a better answer to this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 7, 1999 Author Share Posted September 7, 1999 I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of German tanks that were knocked out by Pershings. I could be wrong; it's been some time since I read that book, and they all sorta blend together 'down the road' a bit. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 From our readings (sorry, can't cite them at the moment ) it does look like some Pershings were rushed into combat in the very last days of the war. We are talking a handfull (like a platoon?). The reason why we are including it in CM, and not stuff like the Maus, is because it gives rise to some interesting "what if" scenarios. It was the only main battle tank fielded that could go toe to toe with the best Germany had on the battlefield. Although we shudder to think there will be LOTS of these scenarios, we do think a few would be cool. Plus we have a great texture set for the Pershing and the model is already built Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I show that 20 T26's arrived in Europe in January of 1945, and were assigned to the 3rd and 9th Armoured Divisions. They were used by the latter unit in the advance on the Remagen Bridge on March 7th. The Pershing was standardised as the M26 at the end of March. By VE Day, 310 units were in NW Europe, but only the first aforementioned 20 tanks actually saw any combat. So, whether these numbers are the gospel or not, it is safe to say that the amount used in combat would have been minute. It will be great to have in the game, all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Kevin, The data I could look up in a hurry confirms yours except for the Remagen part. It doesn't say specifically what action the twenty tanks of Zebra Mission saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Rick: The deeper you dig, the more vague an issue gets. I checked three different sources on the M26, and none agreed entirely on when the first arrived in the ETO, or what actions they were involved in. The worst was service in the Pacific, with answers ranging from "actively" to "none" (covers all the bases, anyway). The number that saw action seems to be agreed on at around about 20, so that's something. As far as Remagen, maybe they were in the area, not necessarily helping in the assault on the Ludendorf Bridge- just can't say for sure. I did find a small mention of the "Super Pershing" that Robert mentioned above: seems what combat reports that were coming back to the States re the M26 were not that encouraging, especially against the Tigers, so one M26 had a beefed up 90mm gun and extra frontal armour installed, plus some suspension rearrangements to handle the extra weight. Whether it went to Europe, and what it did if it did get there, I can't find out. I only found three tiny snippets even mentioning the M26 in a combat situation: - One destroyed by a Nashorn at 300m, with the round going right between the driver's legs and setting the tank on fire. The crew bailed out with no casualties. -One going toe-to-toe with a Tiger (model not mentioned), got off a shot that bounced off the Tiger's front armour. The Tiger fired three times, penetrating the mantlet and killing the gunner and loader, another penetrating the hull, and the last tearing off the cupola hatch. -An M26 destroyed a Tiger (again, type unspecified) at 1450m. That's all I could find. [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 09-07-99).] [This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 09-07-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannon Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Ok,I stand corrected. My confusion came from the reference in "Death Traps" to a Super Pershing M26A1E2. Only one was issued for combat trials. From what I can make out from the book, it had an experimental 90mm T15E1 high-velocity gun, 70 calibers long. Along with special ammunition it produced a muzzle velocity of 3,850 feet per second. It was also field modified with extra armor before being used in battle. Coopers book also references the use of M26's at the Remagen Bridgehead, but does not indicate how many were involved. Thanks for clearing this up for me. I learn more and more about WWII armor every day reading this board. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Even with the ambiguity (spelling?) of what Pershings did or did not do in WWII, I feel it is a good call to include them. There could have been a substantial number of them if the Ordnance Department had chosen to deal with the situation differently. The most surprising thing to me is that the Pershing hadn't more thoroughly replaced the Sherman by Korea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 TWO Pershing related examples (Sorry no M-29's): Coinciding with Operation Veritable by the British, the American 9th Army launched it's own offensive in the North. OPERATION GRENADE - called for an infantry assault across the Roer river beginning on 23 February 1945, exploited by an armored drive throught the Roer Valley to the Rhine at Dusseldorf and Cologne. Most German mobile reserves had been sent North to deal with VERITABLE; however, the weak 9th and 11th Panzer Divisionsremained under the direct control pf 15th Army to face the American offensive. Thus far the Panther and Tiger tanks had reigned supreme on the western front when facing American tanks with anywhere near equal forces. Only superior numbers had allowed the British and American tankers to defeat the panzers time and again. This was about to change with the introduction of the T-26 heavy tank. On 27 Febuary, CCB/3rd Armoured introduced the panzertrupen to this new threat! Also, Akfeb 19 KM SW of Paderborn, Germany.Eager to complete encirclement of Ruhr Valley General Bradley commanding 12th Army, turned first Army north to link up with ninth Army at Paderborn. In order to beat 2nd Armored Division to Paderborn, General Rose commanding 3rd armored Division, ordered Combat Command R to "Just go like Hell" to cover the last 100km and seize the key junction, putting the Ruhr Valley in the bag. Early on March 30 the leading units of CCR approached Paderborn from the southwest and discovered that German defensive positions had sprung up overnight around Alfen. Manned by students from the SS Ersatzbrigade Westfalen was equipped with a suprising number of Panthers and Tigers. Even though supported by some of the recently arrived M-26 Pershing tanks, the American tankers quickly discovered that the inexperienced students had learned their ;essons well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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