Delaware Dave Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Do you have any plans to incorporate an after action report to the game. It would be interesting to know how many units were put out of action by artillery, mg's, etc. I had another question brought about by the city fighting. Can you place a satchel charge on a wall and create your own door. Or an opening in some boccage. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Nope, no plans for built in AARs. Not enough time. Mouseholing (the US tactic of, uhm, making doors) is currently not supported. However, it is on "The List". It is quite involved, and requires special AI code, so it is possible we won't have time to do it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorsten Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 What about creating new doors via 75mm shells from tanks? I understand it was standard practice for the German army to attack a town in this way. Their tanks would be on the edge of town and they would blow holes in the sides of buildings, then infantry would pour into those buildings. Thus they avoided moving down the streets, which were much more dangerous in terms of ambushes, etc. I read about this in a discussion of technical flaws in the movie Saving Private Ryan (concerning the final battle scene). Thorsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 The final battle sceen where veteran troops walked down the streets without even checking to see if someone was in the houses? Gee, wonder why there was anything to discuss (this was the most unrealistic part of the whole movie IMHO). I sort of answered your question in some other thread, but since I don't remember where, I give you the short version... Shells can rip into buildings, and if they hit enough, turn the structure into rubble. But not one wall at a time. This is related to mouseholing. It is on The List, but until buildings can loose one wall at a time none of these "door making" situations will work realistically. Currently we have it so that any unit can enter any building from any side except for a double wall (ie. two big buildings next to each other). At CM's scale this is not unreasonable for a house, but is a fairly decent sized abstraction for a large building. Hence the item on The List Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Are After Action Reports TOTALLY out of it? Maybe I'm not grognard-ish enough but I really enjoy reading about "squad Lieutnant Student" getting x or y kills. In my minds eye I then see where they were located in the battle and it will help me spot my mistakes. It would also help answering the "Huh?!? What did that unit get hit by??" questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Sten, I don't understand what you mean by "totally out of it" ? What exactly do you want? Want more "Untersturmscharfuhrer Vebber leads his squad here" or what ? Just curious since I didn't understand exactly what it is you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Yeah, mouseholing (that *sounds* disgusting) seems like a toughie. Am I right in that CM currently treats buildings as one single object, while mouseholing would involve treating as separate walls, etc? If so, there are some other List items mentioned that I think should take priority. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Any worse than gerbil-holing? Ask Richard Gere about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Fionn. I really didn't want to be this blunt, but here goes: I'm looking for the 'Soldiers' screen in CC3. Do you see why I was reluctant to write it clearly from the begining? By saying that I not only admit that I'm playing a game most grognards hate but also that I'm kind of keen on the least grognardy feature of all. A simple 'killed'-table would do, ...........................Tanks....Soldiers.....Status Squad Lt. King...........0.............4.......-3 men Sherman75 Jones......2.............6.........K.O. HMG Sgt. Smith.........0............12......Full strength Bazooka Team1........1.............1.......-2 men See what I mean? Sten [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 09-01-99).] [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 09-01-99).] [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 09-01-99).] [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 AARGH !!! That's another hours work or so... Ok, well, since I'm already spending 3 hours typing per AAR how about I just include a summary of forces in each Kampfgruppe per turn down to squad level or something? Actually, thinking about it it isn't a bad idea but in a battalion-size encounter it would actually get really confusing really fast.. Perhaps I will give an account by Kampfgruppe down to squad level saying how many SPWs, squads etc they have at the end of each turn in future AARs but for right now I'm struggling to just get the AARs out of the way since I have lots of RL committments this week too. It is a good idea though for the future and one I hadn't thought of at all yet. In a smaller battle it would be much more feasible. Keep them coming. If it's good I'll do what I can. Fionn ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Actually Sten, I'm one of those grogs that hate CC3(a much worse game than CC2) and would like to see some sort of AAR at the end of a scenario. Maybe a table or a listing of all the units' kills, and casualties. This would be most helpful in determining which units had the most effective fire during a battle. It would be one of my wishlist items along with many others but I would beleive it would add a little to the game. But if it can't be fit in or isn't even on a list, so be it, CM will still be great. dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dano6 Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Actually Fionn I think Sten is talking about a AAF at the end of the game done by the computer. I would never even think that you could even possibly want to keep track of this for the AAR you are doing right now. Oh and by the way thanks a million for doing these, they are absolutely great!!!!!! dano6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Dear Fionn ! I am not sure, but I think Sten means that COMBAT MISSION should provide these kind of AAR not you ! By the way, I second that (see my entry in the "The List" thread). Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I'd like to see an AAR feature in the game as well. But then there are alot of things all of us would like to see. I know that I definitely would not want to see the game release delayed by weeks and months (gag!) due to a bunch of these kinds of things. So if it can't get into CM1, maybe think about putting into CM2. Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Dar, you are a sick man Sten, There is an after action report, but not extremely detailed like Dave requested (and I certainly wasn't clear about that). You will get casualty statistics based on KIA, captured, tanks lost, that sort of thing. There is way too much work to make them more detailed than that at this point. Could delay the game by weeks? Dunno, but we have way too many things left to do and more detailed stats would have to rank near the bottom compared to things like getting vehicles to panic. However, it would be good to expand this later. BTW, each and every unit tracks what it knows it has taken out. So if you look at your HMG you can see that it took out x men. BUT! It only counts what it knows, so the number could be much higher. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Hey guys - at the end of a battle in CM there is an AAR. IIRC, it lists casualties and captured men per side as well as victory points. I think I am forgetting something, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Steve, From what I can tell, the only place you can see how many kills the unit thinks it has is in the detailed unit shot. Would it be possible to move this on to a page were it would list all of your units? It would be great to be able to pull up a page that had all of your units on it, and concentrate all the unit stats into one palce (i.e. casualties, mental state, ammo, kills, etc...) I know all of this info is already in the game, but it would be cool if you could pull up one page that had it all there. Even better would be if you could do this either during or at the end of the battle, but that's asking a lot Obviously this isn't high priority, and I'm not sure how much coding would be involved. It's just a convience thing so you don't have to go clicking on each unit to find out this stuff. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Another features some games provide after the game is over is to turn off the fog of war and let you roam the battlefield looking over both sides' final position and status. If you can get this in, it's a nice feature. Not worth a major delay though. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Ben, keep in mind that the longest you'll be using any one group of forces is 4 or 5 battles (I think) There's no CloseCombat-style "core force" which gains experience, etc. Therefor, the record of performance for any one set of troops is only going to be important for a few battles, and after that you use other, totally different troops. I can almost see having this from a perspective iof "which unit kills the most/panics the least" but what stops this from being sound, in my mind, is that each battle is different, so the units that are most effective in one battle might flop miserably in the next. Take the action in North Africa where a group of Stuart tanks surprised and destroyed a few PZ IIIs and IVs. The US Army got a totally wrong impression from this battle. In CM terms, a player might look at the performance of a particular setup of troops and say, "this is the ultimate force." After that, he only uses that setup. Might work for a while, but eventually he's going to pay for his inflexibility. This is one area where I thought SP and CC lacked reality. In both of these games, the best tank was ALWAYS the biggest/most heavily armored. This might be true MOST of the time, but there are instances where a battle is won by the side that uses inferior tanks with great skill (the Germans in the year or so after first encountering lots of T34s, fer instance) Even when skill levels are equal between commanders, the biggest tank doesn't always win (see what happened to the Jumbo) Anyway, I'll be okay with keeping records on paper; this is what I did for YEARS when I was playing Action Stations and Kampfgruppe for hours/day. DjB apologies if this isn't what you meant. [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I agree that the kills portion isn't very important over all, but it's kinda cool And since it's already tracked anyway... The other info would be much more important though, how many men left per squad, ammo level, and if they're routed, etc... That's the kind of stuff I'd like to be able to see at a glance during the battle. It's just be handy to have all in one spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I think that one of the reasons why the "in-game unit overview at one mouseclick" feature won't be in CM is a design decision by Charles and Steve to not make it too easy for the player to have too much information on his hand at all time. A battalion commander wouldn't know the exact casualties etc. of all the squads in battle under his command. He CAN find them out (by clicking on the units of interest), but the less he knows will actually help to simulate the fog of war to a certain extent. I should emphasize that all of the above is what I THINK I remember from some earlier discussion about this topic, but I might be wrong of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Fionn, stop sweating. You're doing a terrific job with the AARs as is. Thomm and Mike D are right. What I asked for was for CM to give the statistics at the end of the battle. But after reading this thread I realize that it would be very handy to have the overview/stats-screen available in-game. It needn't be fancy or with unit names linked to the location of the unit or anything, just a simple screen with all the units and a few columns of the most vital statistics. CM already keeps track of all these so I can't imagine that it would take any time at all to put in, but hey, what do I know? CM rules, big time! (I hope that at least drew some groans. ) Sten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Moon, with all respect, but if I can obtain information by clicking on an unit, anyway, then this is not "Fog of War" but an user interface issue. For my it boils down to the question: How much (personal) time does it take me to analyze the result of the previous turn (using the replay function). My opinion is: The less, the better ! I am sure I will enjoy watching the movies, but as soon as it comes down to playing, I want it to be as efficient as possible. That is: I do not want to waste my (rare) personal time having to look for information I am supposed to have, even if it is "only" a mouse-click away ! Many units = many mouse-clicks = less time for RealLife. Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PatB_TGN Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Thomm, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Moon, with all respect, but if I can obtain information by clicking on an unit, anyway, then this is not "Fog of War" but an user interface issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To clear the air and prevent a misunderstanding: You can view the situation of any of your units at any time. This does not apply when viewing the enemy. 95% of the important information concerning your unit is shown on the bottom section of the screen when the unit is selected. If you want more detail about the unit (weapon ranges, load outs, etc...) you have to hit the enter key. People will probably select each unit at least once during the order phase. I know I do. This is easy to do with the interface. All it takes is one keystroke to hop to the next unit. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For my it boils down to the question: How much (personal) time does it take me to analyze the result of the previous turn (using the replay function). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One minute. Unless you want to watch every single one of your units, then it would take much longer. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My opinion is: The less, the better ! I am sure I will enjoy watching the movies, but as soon as it comes down to playing, I want it to be as efficient as possible. That is: I do not want to waste my (rare) personal time having to look for information I am supposed to have, even if it is "only" a mouse-click away ! Many units = many mouse-clicks = less time for RealLife<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The amount of information one is given during a turn is nearly the same amount one can gather during the order phase. You don't have to 'waste' your personal time looking for information. This is not a click fest/first person shooter game. And, just to let you know, there's a pause button, back button, forward button, play button (VCR controls) during the playback. You can stop the film, go look at something, back the film up, rewind it (if you want to), etc... -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Dear Patrick ! I think I understood most of your points. Let me focus on one of your statements: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>People will probably select each unit at least once during the order phase. I know I do. This is easy to do with the interface. All it takes is one keystroke to hop to the next unit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now imagine the following: You are in the order phase. You select a unit. Apart from the information you have mentioned (and I have seen in some screenshots) a unit history window pops up with a description of what the unit experienced during the last turn: "Sir, a tank [marker 1] has hit us with HE while we attacked that pillbox [marker 2], we lost our leader. Also, that machine gun (?) [marker 3] tries to get at us. Awaiting instructions !". With this information you could react very specifically to the units situation (even without watching the replay). Somehow similar to the CC Message Window. Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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