Italian MPPs

[Pacestick]

Hello

An interesting situation has arisen in a game Call to Arms I am playing. The CP have made a DOW on Italy in early 1914 and invaded through Austria. The first Entente turn after the DOW has Italy with no mpp which is unpleasant but understandable because this is the case with the other Entente nations during their first turns of the war. What is interesting, is the closing screen shows Italy not being credited with any mpp for its second turn of hostilities. I was wondering if this is by design or a bug. If a bug , maybe it could be nipped in the bud before the release of Breakthrough.

[Sapare]

I beleive I noticed this in my game too, but it went away early enough that I shoved it off as me having seen it wrong. What happened in the 3rd turn?

Edit and side note: I think I know against whom you are playing then...

[lettowvorbeck]

This was a common strategy in Frank Hunter's WW1 game, esp. with Italy so easy to beat in that one.

[Sapare]

This was a common strategy in Frank Hunter's WW1 game, esp. with Italy so easy to beat in that one.

Well, I lost to that strat.. admitetly, only because that game I played was the worst in a long time.(I messed up.. I am still not over it)

(admitetly, I didnt quite get the meaning of your post. Did you mean italy was easy to beat or it was easy to beat that stratigy(which is what I thought when I first posted this, but on 2nd read I was less sure)

[Bill101]

Hi Pacestick

If you have a saved turn of the first Entente turn when Italy is in the war but doesn't receive any MPPs please can you send it to me?

We've tried to repeat this in both Breakthrough and with our current version of the base game, by attacking Italy in August 1914, but in both Italy did receive MPPs in its first turn after entering the war.

Admittedly, Italy doesn't receive as many MPPs in its first turn as it will later on, due to the cost of mobilization, but it certainly should still receive some.

Please email me at bill.runacre@furysoftware.com

Thanks!

[lettowvorbeck]

I meant Italy is as fragile as glass in Frank Hunter's "Guns of August". You smash them at the border (usually people sent a big Austro-German force early in the game) and advance a few hexes -- the hex scale is much larger in that game -- and they give up.

Well, I lost to that strat.. admitetly, only because that game I played was the worst in a long time.(I messed up.. I am still not over it)

(admitetly, I didnt quite get the meaning of your post. Did you mean italy was easy to beat or it was easy to beat that stratigy(which is what I thought when I first posted this, but on 2nd read I was less sure)

[Pacestick]

Hello Bill

I have saved game files and have sent them. While you are at it, there is another bug that needs looking at. The Turks entered the war before the Basra DE ocurred, I thought this was fixed in an earlier patch but obviously not.

Regards

Peter

[Bill101]

Thanks Peter, I'll take a look at both points.

[lettowvorbeck]

I thought that was part of the scenario design, that a really early turkish entry would forestall the Basra landing?

[Bill101]

It isn't intentional, though I have wondered whether it should be and welcome thoughts on that.

If we agree that the Basra option should remain open no matter when the Ottomans enter the war (apart from in the Central Powers' or Entente's first turns, which fortunately isn't possible unless the Entente declare war on them) then I have today worked out a foolproof way to allow for the Basra expedition irrespective of the Ottoman war entry date.

[Sapare]

I got a question here, do you guys replay the first turn over and over again and hope for the Turkish diplo hit event to occur?(I assume this is the turney final?)

I just ask this becaus in my game I ALSO had the whole case of no Basra event because of early Turk entry.(infact, in all "call to arms" games in my tournament, wihch were 2) How likely is it that to happen so often in a row?

(What is the chance of diplo hit with 2 chips?)

(if this isnt actully the turney game final then I guess my question can be disregarded, though this whole Ottoman entry still seems way to common. I would still like to know the % chance of diplo hit)

[lettowvorbeck]

I've never had it happen in a pbem game of CtA.

[Pacestick]

Hello Sapare

It happened in Dragon's CP game of our tourney match. He must have received a big diplomatic hit on his first turn because the Ottos joined on his second turn. No such luck for me. in the mirror , my Ottos are only on 80% :-(

I have seen the early Otto entry only once before and I play a lot games.

[Sapare]

Hello Sapare

It happened in Dragon's CP game of our tourney match. He must have received a big diplomatic hit on his first turn because the Ottos joined on his second turn. No such luck for me. in the mirror , my Ottos are only on 80% :-(

I have seen the early Otto entry only once before and I play a lot games.

Yea, that is what I had with him too.(idk if 2nd or just early, but before Basra could happen) That is why I am wondering if people redid the first round over and over for this to occur, becuase the chance is so low.

[Dragon99]

... Basra to keep in Turkish hands may be nice, but is not really important. Of course you could the first turn repeat as long you have an early Turkish entry into the war, but this would be very troublesome for an event which as I said in my opinion is not as important.

Can not say any more as it was in the game with Sapare, but if it was like that because, yes, I guess I just had two times lucky. But "Sapare" You really have therefore previously lost with your Entente? You say yourself that your actions in Italy have been the deciding .....

Italy and instantly attack is legitimate because Italy was before World War 1, in an alliance with Germany and Austria. Since Italy out of the war and also held out alliance treaties with France and England had, it was quite a real possibility of CP to perform a first attack on Italy.

Certainly the better option would have been as the mass death on the Western Front. Early withdrawal of Italy from the war will weaken the Entente strong and opened a further opportunity to threaten France. Moreover, in the not insignificant fleet of Italy is taken out of the Mediterranean.

I hope all can understand my English.... my German is better.....

[Pacestick]

I agree with Dragon in that in the scheme of the overall picture, Basra is not all that important and it would be very tedious replaying a turn over and over again in the hope you score a unlikely diplomatic hit on the Ottos.

I think Germany's DOW on Italy is a legitimate move and quite clever. I am peeved I never thought of it myself ;-)

I always had in the back of my mind that there was a large swing by the US to the Entente if Italy was DOW. Thinking about it now, I am pretty sure that was the case with Global Conflict and I just assumed it was the case with WW1 as well

[Sapare]

I am sorry to say it so harshly, but if you guys consider Basra a minor point of the war you don't know how to play Basra correctly. The point of Basra is not a 10% impact and 15 mpp loss, the p

In a game this big with this many playing factors there is not 1 winning factor, as such to say that something is not important because you did not consider it to be the swinging point of the war is silly.

And yes, I have lost games with my Entente before(though, rarley, but I was playing on my low) and Italy was the swinging factor of my game, but I do recall your Ottoman had about 20 to 30% moral left and I had maybe 8 UK units(with hq and all) at the Suez front which SHOULD have been devided into a 4 and 4 army with Basra and your Ottomans were weak.

Would it have won the war or anything? PROBABLY not, but that shouldnt mean the Basra thing should be ignored, because it could have.

My point is, fix the Basra thing, AND change the diplomacy so there can't be first turn diplo hit. (I think the whole Ottoman early entry should be taken out, I like a small factor of luck.. but this is mayor impact, at least with Basra. We are talking 10% moral, 15 mpp(that is nearly a mine) and 12 or so moral points for britian every turn.)

If there isnt first turn diplo hit the game can't be "tricked" by constant repeating first turn.(I know you said it would be too tediouce to do. But honestly? I did the first CP turn a number of times, not for some diplo hit(because I would have to END the turn for that, which goes a bit far) but to have some luck on the first west front move. Though I only did it for that game) You can call that cheap if you want to, I considered it fair game as honestly, I could have been doing practice runs to see which works best. Point is, people are not beyond doing the tedious and as such you shouldnt go about thinking something wont be abused because it is tedious.

[Bill101]

This thread has been very useful as it's provided me with a few ideas:

1) To ensure the British can always have the Basra option. What I can do is give them the Decision earlier, but not charge them the cost until the expedition is actually sent from India to seize Basra. Effectively, the UK will be able to decide now, pay later.

2) To make it so that a diplomacy success won't bring the Ottomans into the war quite so soon.

3) Make it so that if Italy is attacked in 1914 then it will collect some MPPs in her first turn.

The reason that Italy had no MPPs is because as well as being faced with the costs of mobilization in its first turn, it was also presented with the Decision on whether or not to employ Commander Rizzo to attack the Austro-Hungarian navy. Saying yes to that made her income less than her expenditure for that turn, which was a bit much.

The solution seems to be to make that Decision not happen until 1915. That way if the Central Powers do attack Italy in 1914 then Italy will collect some MPPs in her first turn at war.

To even it out, it might be best to make the Austro-Hungarian option to sabotage Italian ports also not happen until later.

Hopefully that covers everything!

[Sapare]

Those changes sound a lot better to me already. Though I personally still think that for the record, MAYOR % chance events should probably be kept out of the first turn.(fighting calculations and such can't be helped, but diplo and such) I just feel like it might be abused(without really being "cheating") by running the scenario over and over again.

Admitetly, I am a bit unsure about the validity of this point. Mostly because it is a bit useless to fix, you can fix the easy abuse but we all know about a very easy way to get around it.(doing the 2nd turn over and over again till you get a diplo hit..)

I just wanted to bring the whole first turn/% stuff thing up, do what you wish with the info.

Edit: I want to play whoever wins this game between you two, AND I want to play you again Dragon. Reply to my email if you interested.

[Catacol Highlander]

The Basra problem was highlighted in bug reports on the beta forum a good while ago. I thought it had been listed for solving already.

I do not agree that Basra is a minor problem. If it doesnt fire then the British are denied the opportunity of an overload on the number of arty units (and that can by very significant indeed...), and the mpps over a couple of years from the oil must be quantitively significant. In addition it allows at least 1 otto HQ and up to 3 or 4 units to deploy elsewhere, something they cant do if they are concerned with the fall of Baghdad.

So it is a bug that needs fixing.

On the subject of Italy an invasion seems very valid to me, but wise? Not sure... does it dilute the CP attack on Serbia and Russia at a time when the CP needs every unit it can muster to make sure it gets ahead? I look foward to play testing the idea or maybe have my opponent try it...

Finally I suspect there are players out there who would replay the first turn several times in the expectation of getting that 10% diplo hit. 10% is actually a fairly high probability for a factor that certainly helps the ottomans substantially. The only way to guarantee that people wouldnt even contemplate it in big matches is to ensure that the Basra bug is fixed. That way there is no incentive worth the trouble to spend 90mins at a computer to guarantee that hit.

[Bill101]

I can confirm that all the changes we discussed recently have been squeezed in to Breakthrough ready for its release. To recap:

1) To ensure the British can always have the Basra option. What I can do is give them the Decision earlier, but not charge them the cost until the expedition is actually sent from India to seize Basra. Effectively, the UK will be able to decide now, pay later.

2) To make it so that a diplomacy success won't bring the Ottomans into the war quite so soon.

3) Make it so that if Italy is attacked in 1914 then it will collect some MPPs in her first turn.

[Sapare]

The Basra problem was highlighted in bug reports on the beta forum a good while ago. I thought it had been listed for solving already.

I do not agree that Basra is a minor problem. If it doesnt fire then the British are denied the opportunity of an overload on the number of arty units (and that can by very significant indeed...), and the mpps over a couple of years from the oil must be quantitively significant. In addition it allows at least 1 otto HQ and up to 3 or 4 units to deploy elsewhere, something they cant do if they are concerned with the fall of Baghdad.

So it is a bug that needs fixing.

On the subject of Italy an invasion seems very valid to me, but wise? Not sure... does it dilute the CP attack on Serbia and Russia at a time when the CP needs every unit it can muster to make sure it gets ahead? I look foward to play testing the idea or maybe have my opponent try it...

Finally I suspect there are players out there who would replay the first turn several times in the expectation of getting that 10% diplo hit. 10% is actually a fairly high probability for a factor that certainly helps the ottomans substantially. The only way to guarantee that people wouldnt even contemplate it in big matches is to ensure that the Basra bug is fixed. That way there is no incentive worth the trouble to spend 90mins at a computer to guarantee that hit.

Good man, glad to see we agree on things, and that someone agrees on the Basra thing in general. (and Thankyou Bill, the fixes should do the job and solve the problems I had with Ottoman entry)