Help a player out....

[Darknight (DC)]

Okay, I'm going to swallow my pride and ask what the hell I'm doing wrong.

I'm in a PBEM where I'm the Americans and my opponent has Germans.

The game is fairly tactically matched but I have yet to see one of my Shermans spot the enemy PzIVs or StuG IIIs first, regardless if they are moving or stationary, buttoned/unbuttoned, etc. The game goes like this....I find a position that appear to me to be hull down, I slowly move into position, I'm there for a few seconds and I immediately get popped with the first shot from a German AFV, with my vehicle never spotting the enemy (even though I know where the vehicle is and have LoS to its location)...rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times.

It got so frustrating that I charged a Sherman at a StuG's flank, stopping 30 ft from the buttoned enemy vehicle but he just sat there (along the way, my Sherman spotted infantry at 3x the distance and blasted them while moving). My Sherman continues to sit there while everyone else can see the StuG, and the StuG apparently sees me too because it turns 90 degrees and blasts my tank point blank....my guys never spotted it....then it turns 120 degrees to engage another of my tanks (which, you guessed it, can't see the gd StuG).

Anyone care to share some insights /tips aimed at improving my ability to spot huge lumbering pieces of enemy armour in the future....before I pitch my laptop.

[Michael Emrys]

There may be a glitch in the spotting from AFVs routine. Several players have reported odd-seeming behavior such as you describe. If you have a saved game file that you could send to one of the play testers that would help in isolating the problem and maybe finding a cure for it.

Michael

[c3k]

Without a few screenshots, or better yet, a savegame, there is nothing that anyone can offer which would be able to address the issue.

Since you stated it's a PBEM, you should have a bunch of savegames.

Bug? Shrug. It's worthless to speculate without the files.

Ken

[Darknight (DC)]

I wasn't inferring that its a bug....I'm just looking for help to improve my gameplay (wrt spotting) so that its not so seemingly one-sided.

[GreenAsJade]

I think that there's enough suspicion that it _is_ a bug to make it worth treating as one: that is what people are telling you. IE: what you have described sounds sensible, so either things aren't quite as you describe, for reasons we can't tell from your words, or there's a bug.

In either case, a screenshot would be slightly helpful, a saved turn much more so.

GaJ

[theFightingSeabee]

It sounds like a bug to me. Sometimes if something like that happens, you can area fire right where you know the enemy tank is. Your tank will shoot and often hit the tank (before he even sees it!). Usually then, the enemy tank will be seen clearly.

I've had things like this happen from time to time, but always explained it away somehow. Next time you see a glaring example, you should save it and send the save to one of the testers. We'll post it as a bug report that Charles will actually see and most likely fix.

[stikkypixie]

Okay, I'm going to swallow my pride and ask what the hell I'm doing wrong.

I'm in a PBEM where I'm the Americans and my opponent has Germans.

The game is fairly tactically matched but I have yet to see one of my Shermans spot the enemy PzIVs or StuG IIIs first, regardless if they are moving or stationary, buttoned/unbuttoned, etc. The game goes like this....I find a position that appear to me to be hull down, I slowly move into position, I'm there for a few seconds and I immediately get popped with the first shot from a German AFV, with my vehicle never spotting the enemy (even though I know where the vehicle is and have LoS to its location)...rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times.

It got so frustrating that I charged a Sherman at a StuG's flank, stopping 30 ft from the buttoned enemy vehicle but he just sat there (along the way, my Sherman spotted infantry at 3x the distance and blasted them while moving). My Sherman continues to sit there while everyone else can see the StuG, and the StuG apparently sees me too because it turns 90 degrees and blasts my tank point blank....my guys never spotted it....then it turns 120 degrees to engage another of my tanks (which, you guessed it, can't see the gd StuG).

Anyone care to share some insights /tips aimed at improving my ability to spot huge lumbering pieces of enemy armour in the future....before I pitch my laptop.

The most important thing is to remember that if you're the one moving into a new position you are at a disadvantage. There may be more than one enemy tank overwatching your new position, so what you think is a 1:1 fight might actually be 4:1 in reality!

It's up to you to mitigate this disadvantage, for example by approach the flank of the enemy vehicles or by suppressing the enemy vehicles (using infantry or artillery). Make sure the odds are stacked in your favour, approach with more than a single tank if possible. Also make sure your tanks have information about the target. If you click on your own tank, and you see a <?> where the enemy tank is located, it means your tank knows there is something there and will spot it more quickly.

The best thing to do (if the objectives allow this), is to give your opponent a taste of his own medicine. Move into position with good LOS to positions where your opponent is likely to move to in the future and watch his tanks turn into burning wrecks

[Darknight (DC)]

The most important thing is to remember that if you're the one moving into a new position you are at a disadvantage. There may be more than one enemy tank overwatching your new position, so what you think is a 1:1 fight might actually be 4:1 in reality!

It's up to you to mitigate this disadvantage, for example by approach the flank of the enemy vehicles or by suppressing the enemy vehicles (using infantry or artillery). Make sure the odds are stacked in your favour, approach with more than a single tank if possible. Also make sure your tanks have information about the target. If you click on your own tank, and you see a <?> where the enemy tank is located, it means your tank knows there is something there and will spot it more quickly.

The best thing to do (if the objectives allow this), is to give your opponent a taste of his own medicine. Move into position with good LOS to positions where your opponent is likely to move to in the future and watch his tanks turn into burning wrecks

I appreciate the tips, though I do already know the standard tactics, having tried them and been frustrated by them.

example1: I have Shermans behind a hill with infantry forward, on the crest and beyond; these tanks are stationary and unbuttoned. My opponent speeds a StuG over the crest, where it proceeds to spot my Sherman and blast it to hell....my tank never spots it, never gets a shot off, though several infantry did spot it.

example2: I have three Shermans stalk a StuG...I race a Sherman along the flank...he gets very close and stops, spots the StuG and proceeds to open up with the MG, the StuG turns in my direction...I get a shot off (a minor miracle in itself), which sails high...StuG connects with me (no casualties, only the turret-mounted mg is damaged....but the crew bails...and dies)....the StuG turns back the other way and proceeds to duel another of the Shermans, knocking it out too.

It seems to me that I can't advance to attack his armour because I don't spot it and proceed to die, and I can't sit still and wait for the armour to come to me because I don't spot it and proceed to die. So, my frustration becomes 'What the hell do I do to have a bloody chance if I can't move or sit still?'

I was not aware that the German armour was that much better than the Shermans in Sicily. I seem to remember having more luck with them in Normandy, where I thought everything was more dangerous to Shermans.

[Northman]

I'm having the exact same problem playing the Niscemi mission in the demo, except I play as the Germans.

[stikkypixie]

I appreciate the tips, though I do already know the standard tactics, having tried them and been frustrated by them.

example1: I have Shermans behind a hill with infantry forward, on the crest and beyond; these tanks are stationary and unbuttoned. My opponent speeds a StuG over the crest, where it proceeds to spot my Sherman and blast it to hell....my tank never spots it, never gets a shot off, though several infantry did spot it.

example2: I have three Shermans stalk a StuG...I race a Sherman along the flank...he gets very close and stops, spots the StuG and proceeds to open up with the MG, the StuG turns in my direction...I get a shot off (a minor miracle in itself), which sails high...StuG connects with me (no casualties, only the turret-mounted mg is damaged....but the crew bails...and dies)....the StuG turns back the other way and proceeds to duel another of the Shermans, knocking it out too.

It seems to me that I can't advance to attack his armour because I don't spot it and proceed to die, and I can't sit still and wait for the armour to come to me because I don't spot it and proceed to die. So, my frustration becomes 'What the hell do I do to have a bloody chance if I can't move or sit still?'

I was not aware that the German armour was that much better than the Shermans in Sicily. I seem to remember having more luck with them in Normandy, where I thought everything was more dangerous to Shermans.

That why I posted about having better local odds. Spotting is a roll of the dice and you can have bad roll any time. Having more than one tank reduces that chance.

Also, are your tanks in contact with their platoon leader? This also helps out *a lot*.

[Northman]

I think tanks should be somewhat better at spotting in general, but the problem seems to be that tanks are unable to concentrate on a specific spot and thus utilize their zooming capability. Instead tanks seem to have simply a "general awereness" ability, which is very poor. You can put a cover arc on a window and the tank will not spot anything in that window, while infantry will. It should be the opposite.

[Northman]

There's also an issue with small clouds of smoke/dust very close to the target tank(from the gun firing possibly) temporarily cutting off LOS. In that case LOS should be regained immediately and the AI should fire 1 round(at least) through the smoke. Or possibly discard small dust/smoke clouds altogether.

[InsanePerson42]

I have this problem on occasion as well. I assume it's because I'm usually attacking and therefore my units have not observed the terrain as thoroughly. I find(if I know where the enemy tank is, and have LOS) that it often works to simply give my tank and area target command on the location I know is occupied by an enemy tank. This is naturally less effective than if my tank could actually see the SOB, but it is a useful stopgap.

[Darknight (DC)]

I have this problem on occasion as well. I assume it's because I'm usually attacking and therefore my units have not observed the terrain as thoroughly. I find(if I know where the enemy tank is, and have LOS) that it often works to simply give my tank and area target command on the location I know is occupied by an enemy tank. This is naturally less effective than if my tank could actually see the SOB, but it is a useful stopgap.

Giving your tank an area fire command will likely result in it firing off HE rather than AP rounds, will it not?

[Darknight (DC)]

That why I posted about having better local odds. Spotting is a roll of the dice and you can have bad roll any time. Having more than one tank reduces that chance.

Also, are your tanks in contact with their platoon leader? This also helps out *a lot*.

I've tried 3-to-1 from various attack vectors and I just get shot down in succession, as my gd tanks don't all spot the enemy just because 1 might get a visual. It's back to the spotting problem. Maybe the StuGs are just super-good at spotting/not being spotted....I also find the speed at which a StuG seems to rotate its entire chassis very fast.

Oh, and the platoon leaders are always with their platoons (until they die).