Larry Marks Posted May 22, 1999 Share Posted May 22, 1999 Will terrain for the historical scenarios be recognizable or generic? For example, if there were a scenario set in Arnhem would the terrain be historically accurate as for example in Close Combat 2? Thanks. Sorry if this question has been asked and answered. I couldn't an answer in the FAQ. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Hi Larry, We have all the terrain types needed to create Arnhem scenarios. The graphics will not be specifically designed to represent the rather unique buildings found in The Netherlands (I've been to Arnhem myself), but that is merely cosmetic. Since CM covers Normandy to Germany, it is impossible for us to have specific artwork for each regional area (probably would need 12 different building sets!). CC had the advantage of being only one of these per game, while we have to be all. The accuracy of the maps themselves depends on the scenario designer. Good maps with elevation are hard to find, but we have some sources scrounging around for the right stuff. So far we have some great 1:25km maps to work from. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Okay, Steve, don't hold out on us. If you find a good source of maps for conversion to scenarios, you'll let us know, right? Or do we have to send Knuckles to your office? :~) DjB ------------------ A lot of my schoolmates called me "warmonger." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Don't worry, we'll make sure that info gets out to the budding scenario designers! Knuckles? He doesn't scare us. I know his mom and she would have his butt in a sling if he did anything bad Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted May 23, 1999 Author Share Posted May 23, 1999 Thanks Steve. So, in the canned scenarios that are being created for CM, the player will know he is in, for example, a city with a bridge he has to take(Arnhem), but you are not creating every actual building down to the bathrooms. Have I got it right? Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 You got it. The scenario would be Arnhem in every meaningful way at CM's level. Obviously CC can do all sorts of artistic things that CM can not, partly because they have lots of money for artists <g> and partly because that is the way they designed the game to be. Basically a painted picture with hidden values that may or may not correspond to what you are looking at. This is why you can't make your own maps in CC. See the explanation of tiles thread (the one that is closed) for more details. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Speaking of buildings, will say a 2 story house actuly have 2 floors, or wil it be like CC where you draw a LOS as if you where always shooting from the top floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 In CM, two stories is two stories. If your unit is on the bottom floor, it traces LOS from there, and sometimes can't see over intervening objects. Units on the top floor will have a much better view. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted May 24, 1999 Share Posted May 24, 1999 All of this talk about Arnhem got me thinking about one of my previous posts under the CM's Tile System thread (currently under lockdown). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How does a tile for a bridge work in this 3D environment? How does it affect LOS? Can bridges be placed over any terain and can units pass under the bridge? How many levels high can the bridge be set at?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is important for Arnhem in that the bridge in question entered the town over a city street (Ryn-Kade) and at approximately the level of a 4 story building. Also, a long, long time ago we discussed the "demo-ing" of bridge structures. I belive the response was that bridges will be able to be demoloshed from preset charges from a specific location on the map? How is this comming along? Just a few questions. ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 24, 1999 Share Posted May 24, 1999 Bridges in CM won't quite be as funky as what I think you're describing. For the most part they will be a bit more ordinary (though I'm not sure about the Arnhem bridge coming in at the height of a 4-story building... at least that's not how it looked in A Bridge Too Far. They can be destroyed by ordnance and explosions. However, there won't be any bridge demolition missions in CM. Why? Reality. In all my research I've not come across a single balanced, interesting, accurate "capture the bridge" scenario - at the company level. And, the control over when the bridge gets blown is not the sort of thing you can give to the player and still have a sensible scenario. In other words, in real life, if the Germans were paying attention, the bridge was almost always blown up before the US could cross in force. The bridges that weren't blown were those that were undefended, or defended by scattered, unorganized groups (or occasionally the wires were cut in a freak accident by shrapnel, or maybe sabotaged - but both of these aren't something you can base a CM scenario on). So either it's a cakewalk for the US, or the bridge is blown on turn #1 by organized Germans. Not much game in there. I think bridge capturing would be an excellent topic at a higher level (regimental, for example, and we may visit this in the future), but at CM's level it just doesn't make for good gaming if you want to keep it historically accurate. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted May 24, 1999 Share Posted May 24, 1999 Charles, the bridge they used to shoot A Bridge To Far was over the Ijssel. They used this one because the original roadway & railway bridges were rebuilt after the war. The bridge over the Ijssel more resembled the original Arnhem bridge so they shot it there instead. I agree with you in that all major bridges were blown before the allies got close (suprise situations not withstanding). So if I read you right, bridge battles (involving the possible destruction of the bridge) in CM will focus on smaller bridges. For situations such as Arnhem, is the bridge tile able to pass over terrain other than water and can units pass under it? Can LOS be traced under a bridge tile? ------------------ Rhet [This message has been edited by Rhet (edited 05-24-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted May 24, 1999 Share Posted May 24, 1999 The bridge at Remagen was rather interesting. Why it didn't blow will never really be known. Were the wires cut by shells from the tanks firing on the bridge or was it sabotage from the forein conscript workforce? Ken Hechler, a US army combat historian, wrote a book on it. The book is more a look into chain of command issues and the court martials that ensued than a flash bang tale of explosions and blood. I found it to be an interesting read, really brought to light the problems the Germans were facing towards the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted May 25, 1999 Author Share Posted May 25, 1999 Now that I brought up Arnhem will it be possible to model the pillbox on the bridge? If yes, will flamethrowers be modeled (he asks while salivating)? How about modeling for PIATS or 6 pounders to take out German armored cars as they cross the bridge? Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 25, 1999 Share Posted May 25, 1999 All significant historical units like flamethrowers, PIAT, etc. are included. There are pillboxes of various sorts in CM as well. You can probably stick it on a bridge, or close enough. Dunno Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted May 25, 1999 Share Posted May 25, 1999 Dear BTS Team ! You did not answer the crucial question whether you bridges can be driven under or not ! For your motivation : Even in CC2 you could ! Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 25, 1999 Share Posted May 25, 1999 Whooops! Forgot to update people on that Thomm. At present, no, nothing can move under bridges. Unforunately, to do this we would have to rewrite the entire Combat Missions physics engine. Estimated time about 1-1.5 months. This seems like an utter waste of time to support what ammounts to a single bridge. The main reason is that CM is not set up to have two different heights in any given spot, and that is what a raised bridge would require. Seeing as such a roadway is very rare, and that it complicates the game mechanics greatly, we didn't include support for it (forgetting about the importance of Arnhem's odd bridge). Good news is that we are working on a compromise soultion. It won't be 100% realistic, but it won't delay the game and will work well. However, it will be at least as realistic as CC2's system, which is also an abstraction from what we can tell. One that worked very well I might add. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Balaban Posted May 25, 1999 Share Posted May 25, 1999 Could you not make a bridge into a foxhole with only 2 exits or entrances (which ever way you want), only shooting or observing out the sides. Over run does nothing to the occupants. Would this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 25, 1999 Share Posted May 25, 1999 No, foxholes are simply a modifier to the existing terrain to give the unit better defensive qualities. They don't have a different height. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted May 26, 1999 Share Posted May 26, 1999 Then could a bridge be modelled as a long, thin building with two stories (as you already allow multi-story buildings)? Or are the buildings pre-built and not alterable(I think a recent thread, maybe one I started, said so)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted May 26, 1999 Share Posted May 26, 1999 To follow-up my own post: the tile at one 'edge' of the 'building' would have an abrupt elevation change to match the top of the building. This assumes that buildings are coded to allow vehicles and infantry to move along their tops.... maybe not. [This message has been edited by aaronb (edited 05-25-99).] [This message has been edited by aaronb (edited 05-25-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 26, 1999 Share Posted May 26, 1999 It might seem simple to copy and paste code to make new functions, but it isn't that simple. Buildings are buildings, and not bridges. They were coded in such a way that they can't become bridges. We are, however, working on a way to get the functionality needed for the Arnhem bridge. Something new, but not something that will take a month to do. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted May 26, 1999 Author Share Posted May 26, 1999 Since we are still talking about the Arnhem Bridge and realism.....will Major Digby Tatham-Warter's umbrella be modeled? Larry (sorry I just couldn't help myself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 26, 1999 Share Posted May 26, 1999 Let's see... umbrella sloped at 57.2 degrees... range 140 meters... spitball deflected! Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted May 27, 1999 Share Posted May 27, 1999 Well, according to Talonsoft (Re: Talonsoft vs. Fionn) you should also take the "Rate of Spitting" into account. Enough of those umbrellas would actually have the same armorvalue as the front turret on a PzII. Sten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 28, 1999 Share Posted May 28, 1999 LOL Sten.. One note be very careful of automatic spitters those guys can go through pillboxes like they're not even there. Damn their ROF rules clause hehe Cheerio Fionn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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