Guest Big Time Software Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 The battle is entering its final phase now. Fionn is coming in and Martin is getting ready for the assault. Who woulda thunk? The end of the thread had a good question from Scott about why Martin started to move the troops in the southern woods. I'll leave him to answer this as I have NO idea Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Ah, ok, gotcha. Well, initially I placed them where they were so that they had an LOS further south as well as to the bridge AND so that they could retreat quickly into town if necessary. After I realized that the main infantry attack was definitely coming from the south, I wanted to move them back into less exposed positions behind the other platoon and at the same time make it more difficult for him to go for a wide flanking maneuver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Moon, not to keep whapping you in the head over this one, but if you had infantry in the south only to a)establish LOS in the south, and another angle on the bridge and b)planned to withdraw them in the face of a real attack, wouldn't it have made more sense to put just an OP down there, and then, if possible, reinforce them if necessary? No insult or anything meant. You're doing much better overall than I would. That's the way I am; I can look over somebody's shoulder and point out typos or flawed tactics or a missed spot in the paint, but put me in that person's shoes and I can't do it any better. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Yep, actually you're probably right, Doug. A single OP would have done the job, too, when I think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Hey Moon (and Steve), I have a couple questions concerning ambushes and hidden units. Is there a way to tell whether a unit is indeed hidden from the enemy. I always found it hard in SP or CC to tell or remember which units were probably well hidden i.e. never been moved. It always sucked to think your guy is safely conceled only to have something move up and blast it. I would think that it wouldn't be too unrealistic for a unit to know to some extent whether it is in good hiding. Maybe give a confidence or probability level. High medium or low. This would at least help you keep track of which units you should leave in place and which you should maybe move out of the way. For example, your bazooka team that you had in the woods covering the approach to the bridge might have a high level of probability of being hidden if he had started the scenario there but if he had moved there while maybe in the line of sight of the enemy and then was given a hide command his level might be medium or low. My other question concerns that same bazooka unit. I'm curious as to how his morale was affected as he became more and more isolated from friendly units. I would think he would get pretty edgy as the infantry moved closer and closer and in fact may totally lose his nerve and bolt even without taking any fire. Of course his confidence in his hidden status and his experience would I think affect this I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 But how would you know that you are well hidden in real life? There certainly is no one to tell you - until the enemy opens up! Just as in real life, you have to use common sense in CM - and still won't know for sure until initial contact has been made. And even then - maybe the enemy was just using recon by fire? The most obvious thing that happened to that bazooka team is that it is out of control. This means that it will react much slower to my orders, sometimes so slow that in fact it will only start moving at the end of the turn. Another effect will be that it will surrender more easily to an overwhelming enemy, stay pinned longer etc. However, there is no "morale level" displayed for the individual unit - you will have to guess from what you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Moon, I would think that by watching the disposition of enemy troops and knowing what kind of cover I'm in and how much time I had to prepare my position would give me some idea as to how well I'm hidden. I'm not saying I want to know exactly if I've been spotted or not, just how well I feel about the position I'm in. For instance if you set up an outpost along a path and had some time to prepare you would might feel a whole lot better about your position when a patrol came by then if you had just arrived two minutes before. My main point is in other games it was sometimes hard to remember if you had moved a unit and possibly comprimised its position. For example, Say you had the bazooka team hiding in those woods from the beginning. Lets say as you retreated you moved another bazooka team there and had him hide. This bazooka team might or might not have been in enemy los as he entered the woods. Now I assume that the original bazooka team would be harder to spot then the recent arrival and thus would have a higher confidence level of being not spotted. Might even tell the other guy to get lost so as to not draw fire . But lets say both stay, you go off to handle lets say a renegade Puma for awhile. After you come back a few turns later you decide to move one of the bazooka teams. You don't want to move the better concealed one but you can't remember which one it was. It would be nice to click on them and get some kind of indication as to which one it was. Thus the High medium or low confidence level. Or maybe something that tells you you've been hiding for x amount of turns. Again I'm not saying I want to know if the enemy can see me its just how well I feel about my position. In fact you might have a high confidence level but in actuality there was a guy with a radio and binoculars in that outhouse over there whos been there even longer and has known about you from the start. His confidence level might be pretty high also until he sees someone doing a little gig and start running towards his position while undoing his fly. Mainly though this would help to eliminate mistakes of moving a unit that is well concealed instead of one that might be questionable. A lot of this depends on the spotting rules and if time to prepare and lack of motion decreases your chance of being spotted. Maybe Steve could help out here. Well this got kind of long but I hope you see my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 I see what you are getting at Rod. Sorta a "confidence level" in being in a good spot. Obviously it wouldn't be realistic for you to truly know if things are safe, but some sort of "gut feeling" wouldn't be out of the realm of realism. Fortunately I don't think this is needed. The player's grasp of what is going on and when is surprsingly strong. I can remember things that specific squads of Martin did and did not do and I didn't even play the game What I am getting at here is that you shouldn't have any problems with keeping track of who is who and what they did the turns prior. Don't know how else to explain it than that. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Hi Steve, Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you have a good handle on what I'm getting at. And maybe its not going to be a problem in CM, I'm totally willing to take your word for that and have to until the beta comes out . But I'm wondering if say you have a couple or several PBEM games going on at once or maybe just one but only get around to it a couple times a week.I could see where you might not quite remember how well some unit was positioned. I could see the need to post a bunch of sticky notes along the edge of my monitor reminding me not to move squad x unless absolutely necessary. Anyway congrats on going Beta. Oh the sticky notes kind of brings up another point. I know this was talked about a long time ago but was it ever determined if it would be possible to generate a crude map of the scene that could be printed out. Something along the lines of whats on the intro page to the battle reports. That way I could just make notes on it about my or enemy units. Thanks again Steve and Good Luck Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Thanks Rod! Now I also see more clearly what you mean. I have been playing several games at the same time, one or two against Fionn and a couple more against myself to test things - and I have never found it difficult to remember which unit did what etc. I don't know what it is, maybe the fact that the soldiers on the field are animated, move their heads, arms and legs etc., but the immersion factor is much much higher than in any other wargame I know (and I know many) - i.e. that you really become attached to your units over the course of a game - hell I remember most of the names of "heros" in the game against Fionn, I can tell you details about every single turn from memory etc. I would suggest to play with the beta demo and see for yourself. I am pretty sure that you will find that such a tool is not required, although not too bad of an idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Hey Moon, Thanks for your input. Things are sounding better all the time and I can't wait to get my hands on the demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannon Posted September 19, 1999 Share Posted September 19, 1999 RE: Hiding Well there are place holder graphics for when you lose LOS to units. This is the type of information that you would have to track yourself if the game interface didn't do such a great job of tracking it for you. I could see a need for a similar indication of how hidden you are. Maybe it could be the text indication "hiding in trees" going to "hidden in trees" when you've been there undiscovered awhile. Hiding units for ambush has always been a sore spot with me. With simultaneous turns and unit AI it may not be an issue. Playing other games there have been situations where I felt that a unit should have some indication as to whether it has been discovered, and that information would certainly change my strategy. I would think in a forest example the enemy would start yelling "Over here!" and pointing, or start shooting and take cover. Maybe a veteran unit would handle it better than a green unit. In the situation where they start taking pot shots, you would know that is happening if you watch that unit during playback, but some text like "discovered in trees" would help to make sure you didn't miss it. Again given the difference between this game engine and all the others, this may be totally irrelevent. It's just a pet peeve of mine from other games. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darstand Posted October 1, 1999 Share Posted October 1, 1999 What do you consider the three most tactical lessons you have leared from this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 1, 1999 Share Posted October 1, 1999 1. Hide your tanks if playing the US. Dig a big hole in the ground, put them in, close the hole, and wait until you see the back side of a German tank. 2. MGs are HEAVY and take MUCH longer than you thought to be repositioned, especially in snow. If you need to reposition, do it early, or even better - put them somwhere way behind your infantry shield so that you don't have to move them at all. 3. Artillery is a mighty weapon and can decide a game for you. Use it on enemy concentrations and possible assembly areas and you will win a game without even having to fire a single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Peltz Posted October 2, 1999 Share Posted October 2, 1999 Do you feel that perhaps arty may be represented as too powerful in the game? For every historical instance I have read where arty was a deciding factor, I have read at least one instance where it was a complete failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted October 2, 1999 Share Posted October 2, 1999 Arty is powerful when it hits on target, and that's how it should be. I pounded Fionns halftracks and infantry in the clearing for several minutes without break, expended something like 90 81mm rounds! On the other hand, even big shells like 14 inch naval guns can be just a warm breeze when they land a mile off target (which they sometimes do). In general, when your FO can track LOS to the target, arty will (and should) be a killer. If the FO is calling down fire blind, then it's basically pure luck. CM simulates this pretty well, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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