Lee enfield vs K98

[Lee_Vincent]

Wonderful thread great reading, thanks to all contributors

[dieseltaylor]

This may be interesting. I am impreseeed by the amount of lead that could be fired

Quote: War Office 291/479

Optimum rate of aimed rifle fire.

"It has for some time been the practice at the School of Infantry and elsewhere to demonstrate a rifleman firing his rifle at a very high rate (up to 25 rounds per minute), and it has appeared to be questionable whether such a rate is worth while attempting."

A trial was conducted with 8 Guardsmen and 5 Canadians firing from the lying position at 25 yards.

The average minimum and maximum rates of fire were 12.7 and 22.7 rds/min for the Guards, 13.2 and 19.5 rds/min for the Canadians. The results were adjusted to give the following expected number of hits per minute on a 5ft X 1ft target at 200 yards:

Rate 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26

Hits 3.8 4.5 5.1 5.7 6.2 6.7 7.1 7.5 7.9

[noob]

According to Wikipedia the effective range for Kar 98k was 500m, while for SMLE it was 503m. Therefore Brits should always try to engage Germans at a range of 501–503m.

Incorrect, Brits should try and engage at ranges from 500.000000000000000000000000000000000001 - 503m.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

Incorrect, Brits should try and engage at ranges from 500.000000000000000000000000000000000001 - 503m.

Or more correctly, they should engage at a range comprised within the ]500 m, 503 m] interval.

Your notation is incorrect, because you effectively say that a range of 500.0000000000000000000000000000000000009 m would be too short, which is wrong. We have to :

- either assume that any distance strictly longer than 500 m is sufficient, in which case a distance of 500.0000000000000000000000000000000000009 m is sufficient;

- or consider that there is some margin for error, but then, that margin is going to be higher than 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001 m (we can expect at least a few millimeters) and the minimal safe distance would be something like 500.005 m (assuming a 5 mm error margin, which seems reasonable enough).

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to editing some awfully misguided Wikipedia articles about World War II, which don't mention the importance of the British 3 m range advantage in rifle fire and its impact on the tactics they used.

edit: Funnily enough, I had to look up Wikipedia to write that.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

The Lee Enfield, in its various forms is the best battle bolt action rifle in the world bar none, and I speak from considerable first hand experience.

It is possible to sustain a rate of fire of 15 aimed rounds per minute. with this rifle This in fact was the minimum standard required by the British soldier in the First World War.

With a Mauser or a Springfield (which is a Mauser with knobs on) it is much harder to sustain this rate of fire because the bolt-stroke is considerably longer. Also Mauser action rifles cock on the opening stroke of the bolt which slows things down even more due to the extra leverage needed. Lee-Enfields close on the closing stroke which requires no extra force at all due to the momentum of the bolt going forward.

For those of you who are shooters, please take note that a Lee-Enfield that has had a significant number of cordite rounds put through it will not perform well with modern ammunition. This is because cordite burns at a different temperature and wears the barrel in a different way. I would strongly advise that you either shoot the rifle using old cordite ammo, or get the rifle re-barrelled and then use something like Privi-Partizan. Greek surplus ammo is non-cordite and I have had some excellent results with it.

I have also had great results with cordite ammo shot through an original barrel. However the primers of the '41 dated ammo I was using were not 100% reliable. Cleaning the rifle was a real b*gger as well, involving kettles of boiling water poured through the thing. The primers were very corrosive as well, and particular care had to be given to the firing pin and the face of the bolt-head. The barrel of the rifle also sweated and had to be pulled through again a couple of days or so later.

Thats my pennyworth!

SLR

[LukeFF]

Although I do not own a Lee-Enfield (yet), I can attest to the time/effort needed to cock and de-cock the bolt on the K98. Even the M91/30, with its straight bolt handle, is a bit faster than a Mauser.

[c3k]

Sooo, the British infatuation with tea was because they had to brew up kettles of hot water to clean their rifles?

[fry30]

BadgerDog, really liked your site. Didn't know it was yours! I checked out the Mosin 91/30 that is on there. Great attention to detail. Almost derailed my entire day... Definitely bookmarked. At my local gun shop they had a Garand, Arisaka, and Mosin. The Mosin was more within my price range : D (But what a rifle!)

[BadgerDog]

BadgerDog, really liked your site.

Thank you ....

Regards,

Doug