AI questions

[usgubgub]

I have read the scenario design manual a number of times, but I find it treats many elements in a very superficial way, and it is in any case specific to CMSF.

What I would find more useful is something that explains more clearly how to use the available groups, order types and stances to achieve different effects and model different situations.

I am really looking for ideas from people who have successfully tried and tested techniques that bring out the best in the available functions, and to understand what problems exceed their limitations.

For example: how do you get a fire support group to set up correctly along a hedgerow or wall line without losing its cover and with LOS to the next hedgerow/wall line?

When is assault the right order type, and when maximum assault? Does it make a difference if one uses cautious/normal/active stances in an advance, assault or maximum assault context or is cautious only to be used in a static defense context?

In a dynamic situation, does assault preceed maximum assault or do things work best the other way 'round?

After setup, there are only order types available that imply movement. What if all one wanted was for the units to remain in place but change stance? For instance, you may want a group of units to start the game hiding and then switch to "ambush 75m". What is the best way to achieve that?

Moving groups of units away from the enemy or sideways seems to result in them stopping with the wrong facing. I get around this by getting them to retreat (or move sideways) further than intended and then give them another move order to the intended location that will result in them facing the right way. Is there a better way 'round this?

How do you give orders to reinforcements if you want their arrival time to be variable? The exit before/exit after system does not seem to allow flexibility here. If reinforcements arrive near the edge of the map or in any event some distance from their side's objectives, will they move against the enemy without specific AI orders or will they just sit there?

If the computer side has arty support, is there anyway to script how and when this will be used other than at the very beginning of a battle? Is it a question of getting an HQ or FOO with contact with arty assets somewhere where they can see the enemy and they will do the rest? What are the best orders to give them to make sure they do that?

How is it best to organise an assault by armored infantry using their armored half tracks to move within striking distance and then in support? Do you put the infantry in one group and the vehicles in another? How do you co-ordinate them while the infantry is mounted?

Is it possible/practical to organise concentric attacks on a surrounded position?

These are just a sample of practical design problems I have encountered in trying to design scenarios. As I am inexperienced I end up abandoning the projects and just playing as both sides, which can be as entertaining as it is problematic. With more practice/confidence I may just get to the point where I can feel good enough about my work to post it on the repository for other people to enjoy. Right now, I think I don't know enough.

Any advice, suggestions or tips would be greatly appreciated.

[mjkerner]

usgubgub,

Well, since no one else has commented, I'll take a stab at it. Bear in mind there are many others who are real pros at this, and the following information is from trial and error, reading the manual, as well as some very good discussions here and on the CMSF Forum. (Hint: The search engine won't search just for "ai" because of too few characters, so try "ai plans" "ai groups", etc.)

Also, I haven't taken notes as I putz with the editor, and the game isn't handy atm, which means I'm relying on my memory...not necessarily a good thing for you! On the other hand, these comments will actually be those notes that I didn't write down before!

For example: how do you get a fire support group to set up correctly along a hedgerow or wall line without losing its cover and with LOS to the next hedgerow/wall line?

Be careful to paint the map zone so that it doesn't bleed over the hedgerow/wall. This also brings up how big should the zone be? Big enough to fit all the units/subunits in the AI Group comfortably...not too tight, not too big. Experiment until you find what works for the various size units. For example, 10-12 Action Squares wide by 2 or 3 deep generally seems to be about right for me for a German platoon in an "average" advance to contact.

The Tac AI should face the troops (eventually, anyway) in the direction of the main threat. It generally faces them in the direction of the move, so to get them to face left/right of the axis of advance...time + threats?

When is assault the right order type, and when maximum assault? Does it make a difference if one uses cautious/normal/active stances in an advance, assault or maximum assault context or is cautious only to be used in a static defense context?

Movement Orders deal with movement types and Stance Orders deal with fire discipline(or lack thereof)--for the most part, that is--when the AI is executing the Order while moving to the next Map Zone. You can find this out by testing on a plain map (I use the default "New" scenario map in the editor.) I end up using Assault and Max Assault Map Orders alot when I want the AI to come at me, since they order the AI truppen to use Assualt and Quick Command moves mostly (more Quicks used in the Assault Order, more Assault moves in the Max Assault Order). These Map Orders do also use the Slow Command, and probably others, in order to keep the group together, but the two mentioned are used the most in those two Orders. I assume "Advance" uses more Quick and Fast Commands, with "Dash" obviously using more Fast Commands.

Cautious, Normal, Ambush, Active and (another one???) Map Orders deal with when and how often the Group will stop to fire at threats before moving on or going to ground. From firing away at anything to firing little or not at all. Depends on what you expect them to encounter while executing the Order.

In a dynamic situation, does assault preceed maximum assault or do things work best the other way 'round?

Probably, but see above.

After setup, there are only order types available that imply movement. What if all one wanted was for the units to remain in place but change stance? For instance, you may want a group of units to start the game hiding and then switch to "ambush 75m". What is the best way to achieve that?

If you want them to stay put and are not going to have them move for the remainder of the game, start them hiding, then whatever time you want them to start "Ambush at 75", set the Leave After accordingly (say, 5 Minutes), "Add" Order 2, paint the Map Zone in the same place as the original Set-up Zone, and set the Stance Order.

Moving groups of units away from the enemy or sideways seems to result in them stopping with the wrong facing. I get around this by getting them to retreat (or move sideways) further than intended and then give them another move order to the intended location that will result in them facing the right way. Is there a better way 'round this?

Not sure. See above.

How do you give orders to reinforcements if you want their arrival time to be variable? The exit before/exit after system does not seem to allow flexibility here. If reinforcements arrive near the edge of the map or in any event some distance from their side's objectives, will they move against the enemy without specific AI orders or will they just sit there?

I am pretty sure that they don't move without orders. When they arrive, they will begin to execute their Map Orders, even if behind schedule. If ahead of scheduled Map Order, they should sit until the time is triggered. As to getting off-schedule because of the variable entrance time, it's really not any different than the battlefield delays and schedule muck-ups that will occur due to the enemy.

If the computer side has arty support, is there anyway to script how and when this will be used other than at the very beginning of a battle? Is it a question of getting an HQ or FOO with contact with arty assets somewhere where they can see the enemy and they will do the rest? What are the best orders to give them to make sure they do that?

I don't know of any way to script the time, except of course to have the assets come on as reinforcements. FO's would be good to allow for Officer casualties and to just increase the chances that some AI troop has eyes on the prize to start hitting the Human Player with arty. One of many reasons we need a lot more AI groups.

How is it best to organise an assault by armored infantry using their armored half tracks to move within striking distance and then in support? Do you put the infantry in one group and the vehicles in another? How do you co-ordinate them while the infantry is mounted?

I have never used Armored Infantry in a homeade scenario, at least not mounted. But you would want to use the "Dismount/No Dismount" option in the Stance Order when appropriate. I assume Tac AI puts the vehicle in as safe a place as possible after dismount, but just don'yt know.

Is it possible/practical to organise concentric attacks on a surrounded position?

Sure. Another reason we need a lot more AI groups. Depending on your palcement of the AI troops, and how you paint the Map Zones, it is indeed possible and practical.

These are just a sample of practical design problems I have encountered in trying to design scenarios. As I am inexperienced I end up abandoning the projects and just playing as both sides, which can be as entertaining as it is problematic. With more practice/confidence I may just get to the point where I can feel good enough about my work to post it on the repository for other people to enjoy. Right now, I think I don't know enough.

I feel your pain. The Editor and Tac AI is a really marvelous tool. You can really work some wonders with it, but I would like to see the following changes:

1. ability to cut and paste maps into the Map area.

2. Triggers

3. More than anything, even Triggers, is alot more AI groups. Oh, I already mentioned that we need a lot more AI groups? Then I won't mention again how much we need a lot more AI groups.

I have some tips I've picked up but have to go for the moment. Back later.

Cheers!

[usgubgub]

Thank you very much, mjkerner, that was very useful.

I agree with you, more AI gruops would make it easier to come up with some really good AI plans. Triggers make sense, too, though conceptually they must be quite a challenge to implement.

[Pete Wenman]

USG'

AI plans is a black art to me aswell and I make scenarios ! Best to understand what does and doesn't work is to look in the editor at what you consider the very best scenarios.

The other main learning tool is to experiment. Set up what you want to achieve (ie a armoured platoon move, dismount and then attack a location) on a small map, with no enemy and then save it and sit and watch it as a battle. I find RT, scenario author mode, is best, but remember you need to be on the opposition side for the AI to work.

I suspect that no one really fully understands the AI although PaperTiger and George Mc come to mind as a couple that come close.

P