137th Gebirg Posted June 22, 1999 Share Posted June 22, 1999 This is more of a question to the Battlefront people making the game: As a WWII re-enactor, I'm thrilled to see this kind of Point-of-view gaming. It's difficult to get a grasp on depth-of-field and line-of-site interpretations on all the other 2-dimensional map-based games out there. I also noticed that you'll be putting in less common units, along with the more controversial ones. I saw some screen grabs on some Waffen-SS troops, and heard mention of the Volksturm (sp?) units. I congratulate you on this, as many other game companies have sadly shyed (sp again?) away from using "Nazi-related" units in their games, playing stooge to the waves of political correctness that have permeated the industry. Close combat even removes the hakencreutz (or swastika as many people call it) from the Vermacht Standard used in various objective RP's. My question is this: Are there plans on including Gebirgsjagers (mountain troops) in the game as well. I haven't seen much mountainous terrain in any of the screen-grabs, but Gebrigs were pretty much in the forefront of many campaigns (Krete, Afrikakorps, Narvik, etc.) some of which I believe you are recreating in the game. My unit in particular is the 137th Gebirgsjagers, 2nd Mountain Division. I'd love to see some guys running around in the game from this unit, although I'll understand if you've already laid out the unit specs & haven't included every single little group involved in the war. Any insight on this? Thanks much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 22, 1999 Share Posted June 22, 1999 Hi there, Thanks for the comments. Yes, it is a shame that some games feel that they HAVE to remove all symbols that might offend someone (well, except for Soviet ones, even though they murdered scores of million in their reign. Anyways...). However, we will provide an alternate set of graphics that replace "offensive" symbols, and in the case of Germany, potentially illegal symbols. Gebirgsjäger troops were not planned for CM as it only covers NW Europe 44-45. I'm not sure, but I can only think of one possible action that saw Gebirgsjäger troops fighting in this area during this time. Can anybody help me out here so I don't have to comb a dozen books? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
137th Gebirg Posted June 22, 1999 Author Share Posted June 22, 1999 Although the 137th/2nd wasn't at Normandy, there were other Gebirgs units present at the beaches and on the roads to Berlin. I'll have to do some more research. I believe the 6th SS Nord Gebirgsjagers division was prevalent around this area, but again, I'll have to check this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 22, 1999 Share Posted June 22, 1999 I checked a few sources and found that SS Gebirgs Division "Nord" was sent to the western front, from Oslo, beginning in mid November. On the 12th of April it is listed as being in 7th Armie reserve (AG G), so there is a very good chance that it did fight against the Western Allies. I'm not saying that it never fought, or that my knowledge is perfect, but I am now really curious to know where (if it did) fight against the Western Allies. Damn, I wish that most of my highly detailed books weren't for the Eastern Front Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 22, 1999 Share Posted June 22, 1999 Two things. First (shameless plug mode ON) Please tell all your reenactor friends about Combat Mission! I think they will love it! (shameless plug mode OFF) Second thing: I'm not too up on the TO&E of Gebirgs units. What special weapons, if any, did they use? A light 75mm howitzer? Anything else? How were the squads and platoons and companies organized? Same as standard infantry? Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
137th Gebirg Posted June 22, 1999 Author Share Posted June 22, 1999 I can research that information and give you a more complete TO&E. From what I know, the rifle used was oftentimes a cut-down K-98 called a "Mountain Carbine" (along with standard-length K-98's, and MP-40's). The Mountain Carbine allowed for greater movement and flexibility while mountain climbing and, yes, skiing. The boots worn were not jack boots or standard combat boots (although in non-mountainous terrain these were used), but rather mountain boots with large, sharp hobnails in the soles. There were sets of steel gripping teeth that would latch on to the boots, acting as ice cletes (sp?). Double-sided winter parkas were used along with the standard feltgrau tunic - one side white for use as snow cammo, the other with the standard Vermacht zeltbahn-style cammo with the raindrop pattern. Panzer schreks (sp?) and fausts were common enough, as well as other standard Vermacht equipment that would be distributed to regular infantry units like, say, the Gross Deutschlanders. The Gebirg was considered something of a shock-troop. Not quite as "elite" as the SS, but not something to sneeze at, either. Orginized in slightly smaller numbers than a regular heavy infantry company, they were able to move faster and harder than most. On a quick side-note, the Gebirgs were the only units officially allowed to have facial hair. This was because of the cold climates they generally found themselves in, it helped to keep their faces warm. They were also more prone to wear their M-43 mutzes (soft cap), as opposed to a helmet, much like the Panzer commanders. They found using helmets less maneuverable in mountain regions (and clanky when bouncing around against mountain clefts), and most old photos you'll see of the Gebirgs have them wearing just the M-43's. A good book to read is "Hitler's Mountain Troops". The author escapes me, but it gives historical accounts on almost all the divisions, and would be a difinitive source on who was stationed where. I know this message is lengthy, but I hope it gives some insight on this not-so-widely-known group of soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Thanks for the info. As an avid Eastern Front historian, say I know the exploits of the Gebirgs troops well I can't wait to simulate the battles in Finnland, where several Gebirgs units (not all divisional) fought. What we are missing is low level TO&E. Although I can tell you everything you need to know about an armored maintainence company, I have no info on Gebirgs units lower than Battalion. From this info we can take a pretty good guess as to the composition of a platoon and company, but we would rather have more exact info. What we need are the weapon and head count for a platoon (with HQ noted seperately). For example a Squad might have 9 men (5 Kar98s, 3 MP40s, 1 LMG). We also need to know what, if any, support units were organic to a company and the size and composition of a company HQ. The information should be good for the time period of 1944-1945, but earlier TO&E might help us make a better guess. Also, SS Gebirgs and WH Gebirgs units are likely to be different, so if we could get BOTH that would be great. Thanks! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Pssssssst: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4602/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 There are usually two mountain regiments per Division for the WH. Each of the three battalions is self-sufficient. The normal infantry houwitzer company is lacking, but mountain infantry howitzers are organic in each battalion. The SS Mountain Division has two regiments organized similarily as in the WH, but they have either a fourth battalion or additional regimental companies. Mountain Infantry Regiment: 1 Regtl HQ - 25 men 1 Regtl HQ Co - 182 men, 4 LMGs, 2x150mm Howitzers 3 Mtn Inf Battalions with ea. 877 men, 40 LMGs, 12 HMGs, 6 81mm mortars, 4 120mm Mortars, 2 75mm Mountain Inf Howitzers 16th Co (AT) - 190 men, 6 LMGs, 36 Panzerschrecks, 3 75mm AT Guns Light Mt Clm - 36 men Mountain Infantry Battalion: Bn HQ - 27 men 3 Mt Inf Co with ea. 147 men, 12 LMGs, 2 81mm mortars MG Co - 208 men, 12 HMGs, 4 120mm mortars Hv Weap Co - 201 men, 40 LMGs, 12 HMGs, 6 81mm mortars, 4 120mm Mortars, 2 75mm Mt Inf Howitzers Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 That Encyclopaedia of WW2 German Army is coming in handy again eh Martin? *chuckle*. I was just about to reach for it to answer too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Argh... nobody can fool the incredible Fionn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
137th Gebirg Posted June 23, 1999 Author Share Posted June 23, 1999 <PRE> I hope this turns out...There is a lot of formatting going on here. This is going to somewhat overlap the info given in previous posts, but I believe I have some other info not covered, taken from 2 of my favorite books on the subject: "Weapons and Equipment of the German Mountain Troops in World War II" by Ronald Kaltenegger, and "German Mountain & Ski Troops 1939-45" by Gordon Williamson, Stephen Andrew, and Osprey Military Publishers. The authorized strength of a mountain division included the following: Mountain Soldiers - About 14,000 men - 5,500 to 6,000 animals - 1,500 horses - 4,300 pack animals - 550 mountain horses, most of which were used as pack animals - 1,400 vehicles (including cars and motorcycles) - 600 horse-drawn vehicles - NSU Opel Kettenkrad (tracked motorcycle) - Volkswagen car - Steyr A 1500 (kfz. 69) command vehicle - 3-ton Mercedes L3000 off-road light truck - 3-ton Opel Blitz medium truck Weapons: - 13,000 rifles - Karabiner 98(K) - G-43 semi-automatic rifle - MP-44 Sturmgewehr assault rifle - Gebirgskarabiner K33/40 - the mountain carbine I mentioned in a previous post - 2,200 pistols - P-08 (army) pistol - 500 machine guns - MG-34 - MG-42 - 416 light machine guns - MP-38 - MP-40 - 66 light mortars - 50mm Granatwerfer 36 - 44 medium mortars - 80mm Granatwerfer - not as good as the 50mm - ineffective on snow-covered terrain and on glaciers) - 81mm Granatwerfer - ?? heavy mortars - 120mm Granatwerfer - based on a Soviet design - 75 anti-tank rifles - ??? - 80 heavy machine guns - ??? - 16 light infantry guns - 75mm leichte Infanteriegeschuetz 18 - 4 heavy infantry guns - ??? - 39 anti-tank cannons - 37mm PAK (not good against T-34's) - 50mm PAK - 12 light anti-aircraft cannons - 20mm - 24 light mountain guns - 75mm Gebirgskanone 15 - 75mm Gebirgskanone 28 - 75mm Gebirgsschuetz 36 - 12 light field or mountain howitzers - 100mm Gebirgshaubitze 15 - 105 Feldhaubitze 18/40 (muzzle break) - 105mm Gebirgshaubitze 42 - 12 heavy field howitzers - 150mm Feldhaubitze 18 Mountain Divisions The Gebirgs fell in the following divisions: 1. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Hungary - 98th Gebirgsjager Regiment - 99th Gebirgsjager Regiment - 79th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 54th Panzerjager Abteilung - 54th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 54th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung * Renamed itself 1st Voks-Gebirgs-Division near the war's end 2. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Barbarosa, Western Front, Norway, Lapland, Saar, Moselle - a small group of 2nd Gebirgs - 136th Regiment, were accidentally caught up in the fighting in Normandy while they were on furlough, according to my Unit Commander - 136th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 137th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment (*That's us!*) - 111th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 67th Radfahrer Abteilung - 47th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 82nd Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 67th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 3. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Ukrane, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Upper Silensia - 138th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 139th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 112th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 68th Radfahr Abteilung - 48th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 83rd Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 68th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 4. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Yugoslavia, Novorossisk, Dnieper, Czechoslovakia - 13th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 91st Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 94th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 94th Radfahr Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 5. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Greece, Krete (Crete), Eastern Front, Lenningrad - 85th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 100th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 95th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 95th Radfahr Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 6. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Greece, Krete (Crete), Western Front, Norway, Eastern Front, Murmansk - 141st Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 143rd Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 118th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 157th Gebirgs-Kraftrad Abteilung - 157th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 91st Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 96th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 7. Gebirgs Division - Eastern Front, Western Front, Lapland, Norway - 144th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 206th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 82nd Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 99th Kraftrad Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 8. Gebirgs Division - Western Front, Lapland, Norway, Eastern Front - 142nd Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 144th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment (transferred?) - 124th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment 9. Gebirgs Division - Eastern Austria 188. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Eastern Front 1. Ski-Jager-Division - Eastern Front, Czechoslovakia 6. SS-Gebirgs-Division "Nord" - Eastern Front, Western Front, Lapland, Norway, Denmark, Saarland, Bavaria - 11th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 12th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 6th SS-Panzerjager Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung - 6th SS-Flak Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Aufklarungs Abteilung 7. SS-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" - Eastern Front, Balkans, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Herzogovina, Italy, Yugoslavia - 13th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 14th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 7th SS-Panzerjager Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung - 7th SS-Flak Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Aufklarungs Abteilung 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Handschar" - Eastern Front, Balkans, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzogovina - 27th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 28th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment der SS - 13th Waffen-Panzerjager Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Flak Abteilung der SS - 13th SS-Aufklarungs Abteilung 21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Skanderbeg" - Balkans, Albania - 50th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 51st Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS 23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Kama" - Balkans, Croatia - 55th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 56th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS 24. Waffen-Gebirgs (Karstjager) Division Der SS - NE Italy, Eastern Front, Yugoslavia - 59th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 60th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 24th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment Higher Formations V SS-Gebirgskorps - Balkans IX SS-Gebirgskorps - Croatia, Hungary XV Gebirgskorps - Balkans XVIII Gebirgskorps - Austria, Poland, Balkans, Eastern Front - 3rd Gebirgs - 7th Gebirgs - 6th SS-Gebirgs "Nord" XIX Gebirgskorps - Norway and Eastern Front - 2nd Gebirgs XXI Gebirgskorps - Balkans, Albania, Yugoslavia, Eastern Front XXII Gebirgskorps - Norway and Eastern Front XXXVI Gebrigskorps - Poland, Norway, Eastern Front XLIX Gebirgskorps - Czechoslovakia, Balkans, Eastern Front LI Gebirgskorps - Stalingrad, Eastern Front, Norway Major Campaigns Poland - 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gebirgs Divisions Norway - 2nd and 3rd Gebirgs Divisions France - 1st and 6th Gebirgs Divisions Balkans (1941) - 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Gebirgs Division Eastern Front - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Gebirgs Divisions and the 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Handschar", Western Front - 2nd Gebirgs Division, 6th SS-Gebirgs-Division "Nord" Balkans (late war) - 7th and 13th SS-Gebirgs-Divisions Hope this helps... </PRE> [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-22-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 First, I want to thank everybody for their help, except for Moon who knows darned well that I have a copy of the same book he used to sound so smart 137th Gebirg, I want to congratulate you on the best formatted message to date Unfortunately, all that information is already in our possession. When I said (above) that we needed LOW level stuff, I meant the LOWEST level. What we need to see is something like this: WH Gebirgs Platoon - Total 43 Men Men MPs Rifles LMGs HQ 7 2 4 1 Squad 12 2 9 1 Squad 12 2 9 1 Squad 12 2 9 1 The above information is what the game needs to function. Number of sub units, men, and weapons by type. Pistols only count if there is no other weapon for the individual. Carts, horses, handlers for the horses, HiWis, and other non-combat elements are not our concern. However, we still need to know this info so we can figure out who was actually assigned combat roles (i.e. if there are 4 horses and 2 carts assigned to a Platoon HQ, we deduct 2-3 men to tend the horses). The info I gave as an example is what I have pieced together using what I know about Gebirgs Company TO&E and "standard" German practices. What I can't get over is the allocated manpower. The only other Ger. infantry type platoons that are this big are Pioneer units. But I suppose this makes sense since men are more important to mountain warfare than heavy equipment. Although I think the above Platoon info pretty close to being correct, I would still like to see a definitive source with a definitive answer. I also would LOVE to know what the heck a MG Co and Heavy Weapons Co looked like in detail. Like Gebirgs platoons, the allocated manpower and weaponry is much greater than infantry counterparts. This makes sense since they did not have all the organic heavy support units of an infantry or armored type unit. Again, I can make a stab at the organization of these support units (and already have ), but we would feel much better to have solid information. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
137th Gebirg Posted June 23, 1999 Author Share Posted June 23, 1999 Thanks much for the kind words. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the book entitled "Hitler's Mountain Troops" by James Lucas may possess the information you seek. Amazon.com shows it to be out of print, but it can be found at most re-enactment sutleries and flea-markets. I know, I've seen it dozens of times. I'll look for a copy the next time I go to an event. The other thing you might want to check on is either the Department of Defense or the National Archives for TO&E's of old adversaries. I'm pretty sure that, following each major conflict, the military intelligence gathered in after-action-reviews is compiled and placed in an archive somewhere. The Library of Congress may be another good place to start. They are online with full access to their directories via the web at www.loc.gov. I've noticed from other posts that once Combat Mission is out, you plan on doing an Eastern Front version. I think I would understand if you didn't want to add Gebirgs in the current CM under development, as they weren't all that prevalent at that time in place, but I would be _GREATLY_ disappointed if you neglected to add them to the Eastern Front campaigns [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-22-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Have no fear, Gebirgs units will be in the first rev of Combat Mission. They might not be picture perfect, but they will at least be a fair reflection of them. We have at least enough data to do that. Whenever we get the correct info, then we can update the formations in the game. Hopefully this will happen before we release, but if not a patch will follow if we get better data. BTW, I know of that Lucas book and would be surprised if he listed down to the platoon. He usually doesn't get that detailed in his writings. Schiffer also has a very detailed (and expensive IIRC) book called "Mountain Troops of the Waffen SS" by Kaltenegger. Don't know anything about it other than Schiffer publishes fantastic books. The National Archives are not very accessable except in person. Also, many of the captured records have been moved back to German archives (Koblenz for the most part, but I think Freiberg as well). I'm not sure if copies were made for everything. In any case, the German TO&E data we use most often comes from the US Army in the form of the huge "Handbook on German Military Forces". I have an original March 1945 edition and it is very accurate. I also have copies of earlier ones and can safely say they got better as the war went on Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 One small addition here if I remember correctly, the Gibergsjager rifle was the Gew 33/40. Essentially the same as a K98 but it had a shorter barrel and a significant reduction in weight (a good quality when humping it up the side of a mountain ). The main point here which I'm sure has already been thought of is this, Mountain troops (irregardless of nationality) should realize a reduced fatigue modifier due to better physical conditioning and a focus on lightened combat equipment and loadouts. ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 I imagine the shorter barrel would cause a reduction in the accuracy of the weapon, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 I don't think there should be such a modifier because in CM's time frame for a battle 60 minutes about the only troops who get wasted by the extra 2 kilos of weight are your Volkssturm conscripts.. Remember that this game isn't tracking movement over 6 hours it's tracking it per second for maybe 60 minutes of game time... You probably wouldn't get all that more tired in just 60 minutes of humping your gear + 2 kilos vs 60 mins of gear carriage . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 (slowly sliding under the table and crawling out the back door) [This message has been edited by Moon (edited 06-23-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Hey I'd like to put in a good word for two of my Fav units, 3rd FJR and 6th FJR. I believe both were in Normandy and I hope we seem 'em. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Deych Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Quick correction to Moon's post: What you have listed for the Hv Wpn Co is in fact the total amount for the whole battalion. I'm showing it as: 201 Person, 4 LMG, 2 75mm Mt Inf Howitzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 The Kar98k shortened version had a folding stock, but was otherwise a normal rifle. So no shortened barrel (at least according to my sources here). Perhaps a little less weight, but mostly easier to move around with. In terms of a unit being "nimble", it has to do with its Experience, not its formation. Just because a Conscript has an Edelweiss on his sleave doesn't make him a great solider The Scenario Designer is going to have to rate units according to their quality. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Jenkins Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 The 6th SS Mountain Division definitely fought the US Army during Nowdwind. Glad they'll eventually be included. ------------------ Climb to Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Steve, I have a really good source for Mauser bolt action rifles by Ludwig Olsen. The differences in his book are as follows: K98 - Weight=9.1 lbs. barrel length= 23.62" G.33/40 - Weight=7.9 lbs. barrel length= 19.29" (a portion of these guns were made with folding stocks) You were right though, the length of the rifle was intentionally shortened as much as practical so that it was easier to use in mountainous terrain and to reduce the pack load & bulk on the troops. The wieght difference of about a pound is no great amount by itself but this would be part of a reduced weight pack to ease the strain on the man carring it. Fionn & Steve maybe I placed a little to much emphasis on the lightened pack but, I still think that Mountain troops should get fatigued at a lower rate than normal infantry units. I base this mostly on the fact that these are specialized units that were specially trained & conditioned for the additional physical rigors of alpine combat. I could be wrong here but I was led to believe that the GB troops were not only "special forces" but were volenteers as well. This would indicate to me that they not only got better training and conditioning the were also more motivated than the average foot soldier in the Heer. ------------------ Rhet [This message has been edited by Rhet (edited 06-23-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted June 23, 1999 Share Posted June 23, 1999 Greg, you're right, I made a mistake on the last line. Gosh... can't even do that right. Hey, it was late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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