strac_sap

I've never seen the 165 mm actually fire, so I can't verify in that regard, but given that both of these use a HESH/HEP plastic explosive round it seems they prioritize breaching. The round is so huge its going to make a mess, but I suspect it will take a number of rounds to take out a building. TNT was for blowing stuff apart, C4 (plastic explosives) was for cutting things. This would be a great addition. I noticed they didn't add this to the later titles with the engineering Strykers, so wasn't sure that was a thing they planned to do in CMCW.

Thanks for sharing this, they went through a hell of a fight. I'm glad the vehicles worked so well, and the M2A2 ODS survivability is noted. Spent a lot of time in M113s and always felt them very vulnerable. It was spacious and fairly reliable, but being alive is preferred.

Yes, you are very correct I have over generalized. As you've stated I've seen a number of friendships amongst my friends, and friends of friends, on the left end over this narrative. I don't believe in being too personal on the internets, but I have strong feelings about all peoples rights to live decent lives out of poverty and war. But, I have heard this refrain repeated so often here in the US that it starts to be held as the whole truth. That the US is solely responsible for this war and for Russia it is a war for existence against US hegemony. There is always a thread of truth in this, but that denies the Ukrainians rights I wish them to have. Likely my far right narrative is also too truncated, and in fact I feel it is the greatest threat. Especially with the returning veterans from this war in Ukraine and Russia. For some reason veterans groups tend to be far right, which has been debated quite a bit since WWII and after. Nixon himself considered the far right the much greater threat, but then said to curtail the far right he needed to clamp down on the far left. Imagine that logic...(this is from the book: "Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon, and the Destruction of Cambodia" by William Shawcross) I do appreciate the feedback.

On top of that, to decry their use of mines, and then not want to supply the weapons and tools they would need instead to defend themselves feels like peak narcissism.

The far right seems to have a thing for autocrats, thus Putin is alright by them and Ukraine can go to hell for all they care. But the far left for all sorts of reasons seems to come to the same conclusion. Somehow this war was directly started by the US and every chance they get they state the the US should end it. And eastern Europeans wanting to determine their own future through an alliance of mutual protection is imperialism. I've read articles in which the authors state that the war should be ended immediately in discussions and a treaty, and as examples of how wars must end this way they use both WWI and WWII! Their ignorance of history is astounding. Every chance I get I try to expand on people's understanding of history so these articles don't hold sway. I feel some relief that Ukraine, and eastern Europe in general, is no longer ignored or even demeaned by western Europe and the US. They seem to be now considered full fledged humans with the rights to self-determination. But given the extremes of political views that may be tentative. Coming back to the mines, I feel this is a similar example. I doubt anyone has an interest in mines (especially the Ukrainians who will suffer from them) as a reality but to ignore the fact that the Ukrainians are fighting against an enemy who seems to have no issues with mass murder, torture, and kidnapping feels smug. I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume they are trying to be even handed in condemning mines, especially for the civilian victims and children that are sure to come.

I blame Putin. Here is another video from Vice to remind us of Putin's crimes:

This above is a symptom above the answer below: So you are inoculated from making changes because you have in place those you believe you need to stay in power. My opinion is this has gone poorly and well for Ukraine. Poorly because the invasion even happened. Well because the Russians are unable to effectively prosecute the war, can't seem to really learn from their mistakes. Poorly because the Russians (Putin) can't/won't accept the reality of what is happening and withdraw.

Understatement. At least the AMX 10RC is fast. This is swiss cheese in the making. (I've enjoyed everyones quips about this thing). Won't lie, felt the same way about the M60 when I was a crewman in the reserves.

My experience is a loader in an M60A3 (TTS) and on the M68 you push the full 105 mm in and the breach closes solidly behind it. I'm now googling why one needs a rammer for this type of breach. T54/55 uses same full round, so I'm assuming it is an age/maintenance issue. Definitely slows loading. Edit: the 25 pdr uses a separate powder cartridge so needs a rammer.

If one is new to the game then figuring out how movement and spotting go is easier in a scenario like this, with fewer units and having an advantage, which was true for me when I played. I enjoyed it because it was just tanks, and just Starships. I was always curious about how they would perform and sometimes don't mind the steel beasts just roaming by themselves. Spent a year as an M60A3 (TTS) crewman so wondered how different the A2 was.

I've been wondering about this. Given the war why haven't all the heads been rolling? My assumption is that these are the loyalists around him, period. But I feel like this is the group that would understand this better. As an aside, I noticed this in the US during Iraq in the early 2000's. Generals were not getting fired even when outcomes were bad. I recall an article that read something like: "Privates in the army are punished more for losing a rifle than Generals for losing a war." EDIT: Here is the article.

Did he just use a crowbar to make sure the breach had closed? ...And make it seem normal?

Yes indeed, infantry can cross AT minefields as as long as no tilt-rod fuses are used. But, and its a big but, do not run. An already heavy fully loaded soldier can already be in the mid-250 lbs (110+ kg) range, and then running with the added impulse can shoot the force much higher. We discussed this often and generally took it seriously. AP mines and anti-handling devices were indeed a nuisance. They really slow down work, and that sucks if you're under fire. @Haiduk posted about these mines which I added below, and I wonder if there is some insider info on the prevalence of these. Most of the videos and images I've seen are of massive minefields of the Soviet TM-62 AT mine with a force of 300+ lbs (150+ kg) required; but how much of the other stuff is in there? I agree that massive numbers are needed for denial, but their morale effect can be pretty severe. The Ukrainians are moving small units up, and even vehicles in some areas. One video I noticed they used two MICLICs and then the BMPs drove nowhere near the cleared area. So definitely movement is available, and @The_Capt had some solid insight overall on this.

I'm hopefully not making a faux pas by being new to the forum and making a request, but I was wondering if there were plans to add the combat engineering vehicles? M728 CEV and Centurian Mk 5 AVRE with the BAOR expansion. I'm not sure for the Soviets. Personally I would love to try them out in MOUT, although leveling a building with one shot might be a bit overpowered. But will always be fun. They are both rather vulnerable to AT fire so getting close to town could be tricky.

I engage with young adults at work constantly, and the changes due to aging in my opinions are profound. I feel like it is absolutely true that they are less motivated, find less joy in overcoming hardships towards success, and rarely even show up. But hasn't this always been the case? Haven't the older generations always lamented the youth's frivolity and laziness? So are my beliefs about this influenced by this intrinsic push towards conservatism with age? Trying to use the analytic brain and not the emotional brain here...

Great summary, thanks. I wasn't looking closely when the Ukrainians repulsed these crossings and it informs what is happening to them now pretty concisely.

I have had this discussion many times with people who state that a certain time frame was the best. I always tend to think it is the emotions associated with nostalgia rather than any deep analysis which makes people feel these strange regressive pressures. If one looks too deeply at the 1950's both political ideologies today in the US will find much to dislike. Currently reading the book "Hitler: The Path to Power" by Charles Flood and this highlights how dangerous these regressive (nostalgic) emotions can be, especially in veterans. Which makes me think about the danger to Ukraine and Russia if they don't have systems in place to deal with the traumatized veterans after this war is done.

Yes, your analysis makes a lot of sense. I think there was confusion about my earlier posts because I believed even in 1990 that manually trying to breach a minefield under accurate fire was impossible. Finding every mine, especially when buried, then setting up a line main or a ring main of det cord to all of the explosives, and then igniting and escaping the area seemed like a fairly tale if we were taking accurate 14.5 mm, mortar and air-burst 152 mm rounds. Bangalore torpedoes were the other option, but I hear nothing about that anymore. Only MICLICs, including scaled down versions which seems like a good way to get infantry across, if available to the Ukrainians. We used to train a lot using "pop and drops" to essentially run through the minefield dropping pre-primed explosives as we went, as the other techniques seemed unlikely to succeed. This requires all the mines to be visible, and either highly skilled individuals with night vision or daytime. We didn't have as much night vision back then... Again, I agree. Without adequate suppression of the enemy large scale breaches are likely high casualty events, especially in breaching vehicles and engineers which are hard to replace. I appreciate your analysis of what the Ukrainians have been doing in this context.

Too low pressure for most mines. And could an F-16 fly so close to the front in this war? They wouldn't detonate the old several hundred pound AT mines, but lighter ones and anti-personnel yes. I feel like this way it wouldn't be complete and you'd still need to plow, MICLIC etc. And the little hounds would have given away your breach point in time for counter fire when you're still vulnerable finishing the breach. Just thinking out loud of course. Crossing water obstacles is a big deal, so you would not want to use this and have it blown up by mines. Plus, these minefields are huge. You'd need many which I don't think any army has. As for the mats of steel or kevlar, that is really just a roller! But there are scenarios when the ground is too damaged by breaching that engineers set up temporary roadways to get through. Another high casualty endeavor under fire. You would want the roller and mat dispenser separate vehicles of course.

Sounds reasonable. Issues: detecting buried mines especially non magnetic? Failure rate of detection robots and kamikazes? As always AI can be part of this process, learning. Probably more issues, but I agree the cost is small compared to what we've seen. And mines are a menace so fixing it needs to be looked at in earnest.

@The_Capt I believe you are an engineer officer? My experience is in the confines of junior enlisted (private to sergeant) so I like to read your broader analysis. Yes, I think I forgot to define those terms, and they match what you said. Breach is to make passable, clear is to remove all the mines. Unfortunately without some new technology I agree with you about needing some way to breach away from peering eyes. Night stealth approach. If done by hand all the mines would need to be found and then either removed or charges set to destroy. But this is difficult because of antihandling devices and being out at night in an enemy minefield boggles the mind. One reality that was emphasized to us was that in certain conditions breaching was going to result in a lot of casualties. That was the reality we had to accept. So going in with plows, rollers, and MICLICs and getting killed is part of the game.

2. is easiest: Even if successful the parachute drop or helicopter assault would need to be supplied quickly, and that would require breaching the minefield to send in vehicles. Someone mentioned this in this thread earlier. Also, imagine the losses in helicopters and transport aircraft given modern air defenses. I suspect it wouldn't be possible in Ukraine. 1. Do you mean a combat breach, or after the war is over? It likely would not set off the old AT mines no matter what, but could expose them. But would require a whole new armored vehicle with a powerful hose, even out of combat.

Okay, these look like modern mines, difficult to detect and will self-destruct after a certain time, with a certain failure rate. This is what doctrine for the US was supposed to look like (end of cold war) and we were moving toward all surface laid mines. But these are not: Clearly old Soviet designs, maybe with anti-handling devices (booby traps). I assume the old Soviet mines are like ours: AT mines in the hundreds of pounds, AP mines in the tens of pounds. Outliers include tilt-rod and trip-wire fuses, which will be lower. The new mines seem to be in the tens to low hundred pounds. Conversion is 2.2 lbs per kg. (using lbs as lb-mass rather than an actual force) So pressure from sound waves would not work, even extremely loud speakers don't produce that kind of overpressure. Low frequencies would be better to give the pressure time to act (Work=Force times distance) But again, you need to have enough force acting for enough time to depress the fuse. As for flooding, the human issues there are too large, and then it would just redistribute the mines. Someone would still need to go through and pick them up, or blow them in place. Especially difficult are those modern mines that don't auto-destruct. What a mess.

@benpark First thing is where did that number of 3-5 lbs come from? It is so extraordinarily low it can't be correct. Even tilt-rod fuses for AT mines were in the teens of pounds I think. My memory fails but our AT mines had fuses in the hundreds of pounds. Toe poppers had low weight fuses but the explosives content was nothing. I am very curious about this, and it would make it both more dangerous for people, but maybe easier to clear using overpressures.

@The Steppenwulf This mod is greatly appreciated and used. I know that modding desire waxes and wanes, but if you decide to do this for CMCW that would be amazing.