Kauz

Yes ...they all (LMG) fire short bursts...like i once said in another thread (after the 5-7 th round of the burst the LMG gets inaccurate/ineffective especially on medium distances. An idea of possible accuracy of LMG you get in the following post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528322&postcount=5 For the start: All HMG should do these long bursts ( 25 rounds) : The difference between the german and allies is simply that the german only need 30-50% of the time to do that...after that he search new aim and fires again. That is right. For that case i always dream of giving the units orders how to attack an enemy or defend an area. (With intensive fire, own decission, or saving ammo option). Sadly such a thing is only possible to pre-decide in scenario editor for all units. As long that this is not implemented you just should assume the maximum effective firepower. And to handle that ammo guzzling you have to work with fire arcs and ammo dumps (ammo resupply). Well i do not know at the moment... But i know that the HMG is more accurate and because of its stability is has no problems to hold this accuracy no matter how long the burst is. And i know that effective range in direct fire of the HMG is often called with 1000-1200 meters while it is only the half at the LMG. May be it would be even more ....but you have to keep in mind that the traveling time is high at such distances and the spotting ability decreases also exponentially. The point again is that you have to spot the enemies to enjoy the called 300-450 rpm. Did you see ever see an enemy unit in this game constantly being visible at 800-1000 meters for a whole minute? So you should not be scared that he guzzles ammo at high distances. Only option to get use of this firepower could be area fire-order. In this case i would appreaciate also that i could tell him how to do ...(intensive, own decission, saving ammo). Till this is not established you should work with the "aim short" -order for area fire. Then the MG would only spray about 100 rounds in the first 15 seconds and you saved ammo. (it would mean about every 3 seconds a 1 second burst in the first 15 seconds) For the start it is just important for me that the HMG is capable of firing 25 round bursts (in case he has the right distance.) In the game you could mix short bursts (3-7 rounds) like they now are with additionally long bursts (with ~25 rounds )

@poesel71 and Oddball_E8: - The MG42 has officially a ROF of 1500. - The Yugoslawian copy of the MG42 called M53 a ROF of 1500 - The Bundeswehr MG3 is derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200. (delivered and produced at: Italy, Spain, Pakistan, Greece, Iran, Sudan and Turkey. - some countries did not stay at the 1200...and reduced to 850 round per minute for example Italy and Austria and sometimes called it in another way Conlusion: - I do not know if the numbres of countries which use MG42 or MG3 derivates is complete. But it seems that it is wide spread. -Another point is that the MG3 is actually the most spread derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200 (not much less than the MG42). - The third thing is that i read that bolt and lock are most time changeable to allow increasing the ROF again back to roots. May be the reduction of the ROF from 1500 to 1200 (or even 850) is more for peace time issues, because barrels and ammo costs money. - The last thing is ... nobody reduced the MG42 ROF down to 500-600 rpm. .....that says a lot

First you estimate the right distance: This you can do by watching the impacts in the soil or using "B-rounds" or far much more established "tracer rounds". You can use your normal view, the optics of the gun, the binoculars of the leader or sometimes by additional range finding optics. The estimation of the range you will finally do by using shorter bursts. Most time (usually defense) you already did this .... After the range finding....: The heavy Machine guns fired then "long bursts" in all occasions. -In extreme distances and/or indirect fire they could use the "Tiefenfeuerautomat" which dispense the rounds of a longer burst intentionally in a vertical way. So you use longer bursts ...or the "Tiefenfeuerautomat" is useless. - On higher distances you use 25-50 round bursts to increase the hit probability in direct fire on a specific point. - On shorter up to medium ranges you use longer bursts to dispense them while swinging the gun in a horizontal way ...this way you can increase the hit probability (and this wise the supression too) and make more good use of the fired rounds. OF COURSE this you probable more do in case the enemy is more dense in this area and not only a single soldier. light machine guns can NOT provide longer bursts....They are getting to inaccurate with every round they fired in contrary to the heavy machine guns. So the light machine guns are forced to reduce their bursts in lenghts of 3-7 rounds. The heavy machine guns are able and supposed to use their high accuracy and stability at even longest bursts. So they were ordered to fire 25 round bursts. In this context it is plausible what i once read (translated into english): "Refering to Colonel Butz, the "machine-gun-pope" of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, the MG34 with bipod (LMG) brang 120-150 rounds per minute accurate into target, with tripod (HMG ) 300-350. Even more quick the MG42 fired: With bipod (LMG)150-180 rounds , on tripod (HMG) 400-450. The US BAR (LMG) only could reach lean 60-80 rounds. Promptly it had proved in the field, that the extreme high rate of fire not only was a big advantage for anti-aircraft purposes. The infantry got enabled to engage even for only short time appearing ground-targets with a lot of rounds. The hit probabilty increased. Crucially relevant is not only the numbres of hits, but that a high as possible numbre of hits in a short time as possible takes place..."

Good point. Driving, spotting, stopping, shooting, killing, driving till next spot. The "Hunt" order in CM:RT works only like the "contact" order of CM:BB I am not very happy with that

Despite the point that the russian had several times more men and material the germans lost "only" 2,7 million soldiers in combat at the eastern front. While the russians lost 8,9 million soldiers in combat. That makes a K/D of 3,3. The americans got less casualties mainly for two reasons: 1. they did not assault into german lines like the russians did. In russian doctrine (no matter if "tsar"-era or "soviet"-era) the soldiers are canon-fodder 2. the american always tried to use their overwhelming air-force bombardments before they even try to advance with infantry. A tactic they perfectionated till our days

For people who want to get an idea of the specific results of the Maxims and HMG42 of my last iteration: Here you see the rounds fired in each round of every Maxim. Keep in mind that the rounds fired of one C100 in a round can be the rounds fired of the other C100 gun....i just took a look what a random c100 gun fired...entered it in the list and then looked at the other c100 gun and entered it in the remaining entry. The same for the both c300. The "left" and "right" MG are correct, because they were single on their position. Maxim behaviour: http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3625/btyflqr8_jpg.htm Detailled description of the result and the battle development: - One Maxim at 100 meters is down at the end of round 8 and had still 394 MG/rifle rounds left and so it took out 71 men while using 811 MG/rifle rounds in about 7 minutes firefight. -The second and last Maxim at the distance of 100meters is down at the beginning of round 9 and had 503 rounds left....so it took out 72 men while using 702 MG/rifle rounds in about 7 minutes firefight -Left Maxim is empty at the end of round 11 and it took out 105 men while using 1190 MG/rifle rounds in about 10 minutes firefight. It gets the order to hide and a small fire arc to reduce the chance to kill additional people with other weapons. -One Maxim at the distance of 300 meter stole/shared a 225 round belt from his comrade MG at the middle/end of round 12, while his comrade run out of ammo then at the same time. This out of ammo MG took out 107 men in 11 minutes firefight. - The right maxim runs out of ammo at the middle/ end of round 13 (trys to reload a 10 round belt ;-) ). It took out 117 men while using 1180 MG/rifle rounds in 12,5 minutes of firefight. It gets the order to hide and a small fire arc to reduce the chance to kill additional people with other weapons. -The last Maxim (it is at 300 meters) is also out of ammo at the middle of round 14. It took out 137 men in about 13,5 minutes fire fight. -So the two Maxims at 300 meters distances took out together 244 men with together 2380 MG/rifle rounds in about 13 minutes firefight. -I did a cease-fire to end the round. Results: 291 men OK, 370 killed, 239 wounded own casualties are extreme low because the AI did not gave specific orders to fire and suppress my MG and only tried to run over the bridge. Would the AI give only 1 our 2 groups a specific order to fire on one of my MG i would have been supressed and killed quite fast. : 24 ok, 3 killed, 11 wounded ______________________________________________________ MG42 behaviour: http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3625/utkljo8l_jpg.htm Detailled description of the result and the battle development: - One MG42 at 100 meter finally got killed at the end of round 10 and still had 1074 MG/rifle rounds left. So it took out 99 men while using 1436 MG/rifle rounds in about 9 minutes fire-fight. - The second and last MG42 at the distance of 100 meters is down at the end of round 11 and had about 585 rounds left....so it took out 134 men while using 1925 MG/rifle rounds in about 10 minutes firefight. - The game ended at the end of round 15 because the enemy surrendered. The German MG42 has double ammo than the cheaper Maxim unit so it can fire for longer time. - Left MG42 had 450 rounds left. So it took out 138men while using 2060 MG/rifle rounds in 13 minutes firefight. - Right MG42 had 575 rounds left. So it took out 164men while using 1935 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 minutes firefight. - One MG42 at about 300 meter distance had 839 rounds left. So it took out 128men while using 1671 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 Minutes firefight. - The other MG42 at about 300 meter distance had 945 rounds left. So it took out 83men while using 1565 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 Minutes firefight Results: 154 men OK, 524 killed, 222 wounded own casualties are extreme low because the AI did not gave specific orders to fire and suppress my MG and only tried to run over the bridge. Would the AI give only 1 our 2 groups a specific order to fire on one of my MG i would have been supressed and killed quite fast. : 27 ok, 4 killed, 11 wounded Conclusion and further Analyse: The HMG42 has about double ammo than the Maxims, so it can fire longer. We have to take a look how many rounds got fired and in what time to achieve the same casualties like the Maxims. At the end of their round 12 the MG42´s had taken out the same amount of enemy (killed+wounded) like the Maxim did till the end of their game. Because in round 13 and 14 the Maxims only spend a small additional ammount of fired rounds it is convinient to say that MG42 and Maxims produced the same ammount of casualties in the same time. The Maxims achieved these casualties while fireing 6263 rounds to take out the same amount of enemy like the MG42 did. The MG42s used in that time 8728 rounds. Conclusion: This result shows that MG42 only sprayed about 39% more rounds in the same time and/but achieved only the same casualties. My sugesstions: 1. implement the horizontal SWING movement while fireing a burst!!! ...To dispense the bullets on a bigger area. This was done in real life with the heavy machine guns in case of shorter and medium ranges and multiple targets/more dense enemy formation 2. implement longer bursts (not only 3 to maximum 10 round bursts). While light machine guna (Bipod) could NOT do that sucessfully the heavy machine guns were supposed to do that (example: 25 rounds) Together with the SWING movement the HMG behaviour will be more correct and efficient. It will hit more and supress more. (3. Longer bursts will establish especially on longer distances too but without a swing movement...and especially after the range is estimated right. ) btw.: before some people want to tell me that the advantage of the MG42 is not making casualties but supression, i have you to tell that: A) That is mostly crap. The amount of supression is proportional to the ability/probability to produce casualties. Even in case you were right and the MG42 firing is more noise than effect, i have to tell you that i could NOT recognized ANY plus in supression in relation to the Maxim. They both did the same suppression work.

The MG42 and its copies and derivates like the MG3 are produced and established in a lot of countries up to today.....the Maxim not....

balderdash...

@Apocal and Oddball_E8: refering to your last posts. The MG in the game never fire longer bursts. They always fire shorter bursts. Mainly the breaks between the bursts get shorter the shorter the distance is. And this mainly not only because of the distance itself...more because of the ability to spot always someone in my set- up. You both argue that the MG42 just fires more rounds per burst (in game that is only slighty the case) and that these rounds just perforate the same target which already would be dead either by a shorter burst of a Maxim. You are right in case of the HMG and short distances AND if you ignore 2 facts: 1. I can decide if i only want to fire 2 or 25 rounds per burst....i am not forced to fire more rounds per burst than the Maxim. (i did it myself...tapping the trigger is enough option to control it)) This way i can fire a short burst of 3-5 rounds on an enemy and then switch to the next target, while the Maxim only did 1-2 rounds in the same time and may be still has to fire and loose additional time before switching to next target. 2. In case of my scenario the Mg42 could have make use of swinging the gun. He sees a mass or even only 1 group of enemy assaulting the bridge at 100 meters. What a real MG42 would have done....it has already fixate an vertical elevation and just simply give a 10-25 round burst while swinging the gun in horizontal way. The guys who did not get hit then search cover..... The Maxim can do the same way but it only dispense 30-50% on the rounds a MG42 can do in the same time.... that way i can hit more people per time than the Maxim ----------------

did you hear anything of dispensing the burst by swinging the gun? Or did you hear anything about that not every bullet which hits is a kill Or did you hear anything about bullet penetration...may be someone behind gets hit by the bullet too About the fleeting.....they are fleeting too btw: again the save-games....for the guys who want to know the set up or want to do their own interations and thoughts about it. http://www.file-upload.net/download-8924678/heavy-MG-TEST.zip.html

If anyone is interessted in doing some iterations himself i can give him the save-games of the start for both sides. Just do NOT give any orders...and let it just run...and watch Here the download-link: (i hope the save file is enough and that you do not need a map....because i slightly modified an existing one---ford away, bridge type changed and establish normal grass around the bridge) http://www.file-upload.net/download-8924678/heavy-MG-TEST.zip.html

The MG42 fires only 30-40% more rounds per minute than the Maxim. Despite that it does NOT cause 30-40% more injuries. That are the two problems ...

The MG42 just not only has a higher theoretical rate of fire (2-3 times higher) ...it also has a higher practical rate of fire... The theoretical is important to spray a lot of rounds in a short time-frame on the enemy because he may search cover instantly (like some of them did while/after i send a burst on them) The theoretical and the practical is important especially on short distances. Just fixate the vertical elevation and fire your long burst while swing the gun in horizontal area. while doing this you despense your burst accurate in a horizontal line on a bigger area. Even if i would try to fire extreme accurate bursts, the heavy MG42 still has practical rate of fire of 400-450 rounds per minute. THat is close to the theoretical rate of fire of the Maxim. In my set up i recognized two things....no matter what you do ...the MG42 will always only fire short bursts.....and the machine guns in general do not swing the gun. And even in case the breaks between these bursts are short because of the short distance and good spotting ...the MG42 only produce the shown 30%-40% more spray than the Maxim.... AND now the most important point...... these 30%-40% more sprayed rounds do NOT cause more injuries..... No matter how you set up the map.....i guarantee you that you always will cause a similar amount of injuries per minute with both guns at least on the distances i tried (maximum about 350 meters) . On higher distances it will a problem to do comprehensive statistics because we all know that the MGs are worthless on higher distances (only produce noise and a movement delay of the enemy)

nope.....the conditions i set up would even cause far more casualties in real life. In real life one up to two HMG42 would have been enough to achieve the same under these conditions i created. In a normal game of 30-60 minutes you can be glad to achieve about 20 kills with a HMG unit. Sadly this is the same amount a standard infantry squad is achieving also in this game. NEVERTHELESS this is not what we are talking about here ... I just wanted to COMPARE the firepower of both guns....and the figures speak for themselves....

I did a lot of tests these days ... If someone is interessted in a detailled result....just post me. Thesis: The Maxim generates the same firepower per minute like the heavy MG42. As short comparison: Six (6) MAXIM-MG need together 6263 rounds in superb situation to take out 600 of 900 men in about 11-13 Minutes of firefight. Under same conditions Six (6) heavy MG42 need together 8728 rounds to do the same in the same time. superb conditions: Elite MG, short distances to medium distances (100-340 meters), superb spotting conditions... ultra dense and running enemy concentrated on open and tiny area...only occasionaly back fireing because of dumb AI.....) BTW.: The conditions and the set up are self-evidently for both identical ....this result is exemplary for reproducible iterations

Yes and no... The damage of slower flying projectiles is mainly caused by the cross-sectional area of the bullet. (if they have simple structure and a full metal jacket ...not a expanding bullet) For example i once read that 9mm Parabellum pistol rounds have a "man-stopping" probability of 50% (whatever that means). But the 0.45 ACP pistol round (nearly same kinetic energy like 9mm Para) has a 75% "man stopping" probability.... now compare the cross sectional area of the rounds then you find that it is for sure caused by this. For high velocity bullets Minimum 600 meter/sec, more probable at over 700 meter/sec...you may find the so called cavitation effect. This effect will appear after some distance in a water including medium (like our body) and will cause an "explosion" behind the bullet. Because of the high velocity of the bullet, the behind the bullet developing vaccuum can not be refilled by surrounding water instantly (because of its inertia). Then the behind and surrounding water will do a phase-transition into gas-form to fill up this evacuated volume with gas. This rapid building gas will for real cause an explosion and do the damage to your tissue ....it will cause the damage/internal bleeding and the hurt/shock...

Some have sources some are deduced by calcutating from other sources. Depends on....for example the skin and the shrapnell is taken from "Beat P. Kneubuehl"

It appears...that someone can´t handle additional information...

If you shoot a 9mm Parabellum round from a P38 pistol it has about 533 Joule at the beginning. @100 meters it has 270 Joule and may still be able to penetrate roughly: 1 mm steel; 2mm iron, 28mm concrete (not reinforced i guess), 72mm brick (wall), 66mm sandbag (dry!), 138mm pinewood (dry!), 138mm soil/earth (natural evolved) To be able to penetrate the skin you only need about 1-3 Joule ...to be able to penetrate your skull about 30 Joule ....to be deadly a shrapnell needs about 80 Joule... Despite the fact the round is weak and only has about the half Energy left...it still has penetration power and kill/damage power.

I guess not....but the soviets do not need an additional armor....if you take a look on russian veterans it seems that they get decorated with a medal for every day they survived ...^^

I can NOT talk for the game... In real life it depends on a lot of things: - kinetic energy of the round at the moment of impact - material it is made of (examples: copper, lead, steel, hardenend steel, tungsten), - cross sectional area (45 ACP has a bigger one than 7,62mm -construction (massive core or several mantlets; it is completly different if you use a expanding round (popular example: Dum Dum) or an armor piercing full mantel jacket tungsten-carbid round -form (sharp like a 7,92X57 IS "sS" or flat like a 0.45 ACP) - impact angle (at 45° your geometrical armor increaseing is about 40% of the original thickness, at 60° it is 100%) - material-type you wanna penetrate (a water included medium is much harder to penetrate for a high velocity round with cavitation effect than for a low speed round without this effect) - thickness of the medium you wanna penetrate (may be the round looses kinetic energy far faster in the medium after a nutation effect established while flying through a thicker medium) But to give you an idea what you may can achieve due to some numbres and fast extrapolations: Pistol rounds: The are used in pistols (for example P38) and submachine guns (PPSH, MP40, Thompson). They all have about 500 Joule (kinetic energy at the start): The absolute maximum you might achieve is... @100 meters a 9mm Parabellum round (kinetic energy is then 270 Joule): 1 mm steel; 2mm iron, 28mm concrete (not reinforced i guess), 72mm brick (wall), 66mm sandbag (dry!), 138mm pinewood (dry!), 138mm soil/earth (natural evolved) Rifle rounds: The are used in Rifles (example K98k), semi automatic rifles (example SVT40, Garand or G43), battlerifles (FG42) and light, medium, heavy machine guns (like Maxim, DP28, L/H MG34/42, BAR) They have something between 3000-5000 Joule (bigger example: 7,92X57 IS SmK(H) ~4900 Joule). Standard might be something between 3500 and 4000 Joule (example 7,92X57 IS "sS" ~3700 Joule) The absolute maximum you might achieve is... @100 meters a 7,92X57 IS "sS" round (kinetic energy is then 3208 Joule): 5 mm steel; 10 mm iron, 121 mm concrete (not reinforced i guess), 364mm brick (wall), 304mm sandbag (dry!), 850mm pinewood (dry!), 607mm soil/earth (natural evolved) Medium rounds: They are used in Assault rifles (StG44/MP44) and "carbines" (M1A1 carbine). They have about the half kinetic energy of rifle rounds (~2000 Joule). In case of the StG44 it might be convinient to just half the penetration power of the above given rifle round. (example: 2 - 2,5 mm steel.....50-60mm concrete....) Remember: the softer, thicker and more wet the medium becomes....the more the penetration prognosis i have given you becomes wrong (especially the soil/earth or a wet tree/wood which is not included here). And remember...i do not know what kinetic energy is left after a possible penetration. Some Nato sources estimate that a shrapnell (very evil wounds because of the wild forms) still has to have about 80 Joule to be deadly with high probabilty ....so in case ...especially of low speed rounds without cavitation-effect you should keep in mind that you need more energy in reserve. And keep in mind that these numbres are for angles about maximum 30° if i had it right in mind (~10% geometrical thickness increasment)

The goal is: 1. establish the 25 round bursts. Actually there are no 25 round bursts (standard in game are about 5-7 rounds....maximum 10). With the Tripod (HMG) the gun is able to fire long bursts without decreasing accuracy, the bipod in contrary not...it has to be used with short 3-7 round bursts. The HMG is ordered to use long bursts for that reason in real life. A longer burst provides a better hit probability on (extreme) high ranges AND at shorter or medium ranges the longer burst allows you to dispense the rounds on a bigger area by simple swinging the gun from one side to the other in a horizontal way. 2. For the reason above the swinging of the gun has to established to increase the effectiveness on shorter/ medium ranges against groups of enemies (for example a squad). At the moment it seems that the gun only fires a short burst on one person....if the aiming of the burst was right the target gets perforated like a swiss cheese and if not it was waste of ammo.

Sorry to say....i do not understand any of your points...

1. That is point.....it is NOT slightly more accurate.....it is far more accurate. Compare the accuracy data of a LMG i gave you in following post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528322&postcount=5 with the accuracy-picture you can imagine watching the videos i gave you in following post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1529578&postcount=135 2. A second thing is that you can not watch the target/effect while shooting with LMG (recoil shock/ratteling of iron sight.) With the HMG you can do this and you can adjust instand easily because you have less trouble with getting the iron side correct. 3. With the LMG you only can set 3-7 rounds with a burst (first round most accurate together with round 2 and 3....round 4 and 5 more INaccurate....round 6 and 7 even more inaccurate) With the HMG it does not really matter how long your bursts are. Even the developer recognized this difference in resulting firepower at least in CM:BB. The LMG had 30-50 firepower the HMG 100-155.

HMG unit: 6-7 guys with 1 MP40, 4-5 K98, 1 HMG standard squad: 1 MP40, 5-8 K98, 1 LMG LMG is bull**** comparing to HMG conclusion: HMG unit is better than standard squad