Kauz

same opinion

did i say it fires 10 seconds continous? ...answer: nope btw...you can not follow the further actions of the HMG, because the film focus on other things.... Rock in Harry and me are talkign about a lot of bursts and long bursts (i say 25 round bursts...RockinHarry said up to 50 round bursts)...and i talked about 400-450 rpm practical per minute ...not 1500, not 1000....but also not max 200-250 like in the game there will be moment and situations were you fire 100-200 rounds more or less continious and there will be situation were you fire only ocassionally some shorterbursts and the rest of the round not......in the game the average maximum you can produce is 200-250 rounds......and only with ONLY short bursts ....(and without swingmovement).

same opinion

I know what you mean. But "200 Schuss Dauerfeuer" means fire more or less cyclic WITHOUT any (longer) breaks ....( i do not count 100 ms or 1 seconds breaks) it does not mean ...fire a burst of 7 rounds wait ten minutes .....fire another burst. There are terms like: "kurze Feuerstösse" or "lange Feuerstösse" or "Dauerfeuer" What you mean is may be "lange feuerstösse" (longer bursts). But "Dauerfeuer" is fireing without any important breaks to not allow the enemy lifting his head again in this time. And about the option to fire 150-300 rounds before barrel change, 4-7 seconds barrel change time, about 6-7 minutes maximum to cool down to half temperature and about 5 extra barrels for an HMG we already talked. 200 rounds Dauerfeuer.....believe me he is not caring about the heat problem ...especially not in this moment....may be his firefight is already over after that goal.....if not....he just change the barrel...he has enough of them

Found it interessting: @ 20:00 min: HMG leader gives the order: "Auf Wisent--- zwohundert Schuss ---Dauerfeuer" He gives the order to take the target (Wisent) under (suppressive) fire with the order to fire 200 rounds in sustained fire. Conclusion: You always have the choice how to use your machine gun. This Wehrmacht education film prooves that it is convinient to even fire extreme 200 rounds in sustained fire. For me it is enough if the HMG(42) can fire also longer burst like 25 rounds instead of behaving like a LMG. And that the practical rate of fire increases from max 200-250 to max 400-450.

Btw.: i can not edit it anymore...the calculations and results are correct but in the written down formula is a mistake, it is: exp(-k*t) is correct exp(-k/t) is wrong only if someone is wondering.... have a nice day...

About the temperature i answered to JasonC in the post before this post. But i make short conclusion for you: : It does not matter if you reach 200°C or 800°C while shooting for example 300 rounds in sustained fire! In both case the barrel will loose about half its temperatur in about 6-7 minutes. That is because the cool-down process is not a linear one....it is exponential. Loosing half your temperature after 6-7 minutes means that you can fire again 150 rounds with this barrel in both cases. About the HMG rate of fire. Nobody is talking about shooting sustained a whole belt. I try to argue for establishing 400-450 rounds per minute practical rate of fire for a heavy machine gun 42 unit. That is not continous/sustained fire!!! Sustained fire with a HMG42 could lead to about 1000 rounds per minute practical rate of fire (at least for 1,5- 2 minutes after the last barrel is used...). Nobody wants that! At the moment the HMG42 produced under ideal conditions in his favor only 200-250 rpm.

Ok JasonC, i try to answer you in specific. First some statements. 1. i never say i need continous fire. 2. i talked about the option to swing the gun at closer distances, establish 25 round bursts to the already existing short bursts on all distances (on short distances only in case of swinging the gun and/or area fire). Rockinharry, said he want to see long bursts (50 round bursts) too and he supported my 150 rpm practical rate of fire for the LMG42. 3. i talked about to establish the 400-450 rounds per minute as practical rate of fire for a heavy MG 42 unit, because the one source told me this and i never recognized another source telling the opposite. IT is obvious that i only provide this accurate practical rate of fire in case i have targets to shoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you ever see a HMG 42 having a whole minute targets to shoot in normal battles and medium/high distances???????????? Even in case the HMG42 only could provide 5-10 minutes this rate of fire with 5 barrels (and i guess it is more...but more of it later) ..i want to see that in case it is needed....most time the battles are over then. You do not wait till barrel is in optimal conditions manual wise if you are forced to provide the needed firepower. 4. You talk about combat accuracy. In general you are right. But you do two mistakes: A.) you just say (whatever my imagination of accuracy is...i never talked about that in specific) that i am wrong..... You just say...you hit "nothing" in combat-conditions....without getting specific yourself. And this you say without offering any relevant evidence! If you want to discuss this way....it is just a thought-terminating cliché Well....again....if you "all" know the answer....then....can you tell me THE answer in specific? B.) When i have six ELITE HMG on a distance of 100-340 meters, only looking and fireing into a small open area, where in a short time 900 men try to run over a bridge accuracy/aiming point of a specific burst ....should not be a problem at all. Even in case 50-70% of them after a short time are not running anymore, just proning. If you can not support this, any further discussion is useless. We just have too different imaginations (without saying your or my own is wrong ). 5. About the normandy invasion: As far as i remember the most beach-areas were not defended heavily. The most casualties of the invasion time (in total: ~2000-4500) mostly were did against omaha-strongpoints. These strongpoints (Widerstandsnester) had big distances to each other. And in case of the famous WN62 only 40 men crew.....a joke if you face thousands of amercan ships and soldiers trying to **** you. So what i already said in other thread and posts is that additionally to the weakness in numbres, the germans might get killed by the ship artillery . Often it is said that the ship artillery did not a proper work. May be in case of WN62 ....but do we know about the artillery effects in specific ...especially on other strongpoints? Additionally is to say that there was not only an opening fire on the beach.....the ships continued firing later while the soldiers were landed. Then you have to keep in mind that officers always have their option to fall back on their own decission and schedule. If you think germans do not surrender, desert OR just get the ORDER to fall by their local officer ...well....then you should keep that in mind...... Keeping that in mind it is hard to talk about the possibilities of a machine gun. For me it is important to get the capabilities of a MG straight. To get an idea of the modelling i did the known setup. That the gun can get killed or suppressed or surrenders is a point which is not or very late represented in the setup i did. That was intended. The practical rate of fire will be automatically reduced in the game in case i can not spot an enemy, in case i get killed or in case i get suppressed. But i want to get the practical rate of fire in a proper way in case that happens not. I hope you now understand..... 6. JasonC...again you talk for others...."you "all" have actual empirical evidence in these matter". You should not speak for all people.....! Further...if you want to go down that road...: I am shooting myself as civilian.... was at the army myself..... was shooting the MG3 (MG42) myself....familiar with historical aspects since 10-20 years.....being a physicist. The last point leads us to your next saying: I have to wonder about your flaming..."half baked"..... A) You did not show any more emperical evidence than me till now... You did not call any or any reliable numbres /sources till now....while me in the opposite trying approach the problem by calculating in a proper and careful way. C) I guess i am more "allowed" to do this approach and tell you it is proper and careful one because i am a physicist. D)Because of A), and C)....: Tell me why i should feel motivated to listen to your posts...? So ...i hope the trolling stops now.... 7. About your numbres you just drop into the arena....for example the 800°C... You should be more careful with the numbres you drop into the arena. I did say 200°C as a first rough approach...i did NOT say if i used sustained fire or how many rounds i shot with a specific gun. Also I said that there has to be further research work to be done. The 700-800°C you drop into the arena...well....i do not know if you have a reliable source for that or if it is just a rough guess of you. It naturally depends on the barrel, the rate of fire and the rounds i shoot ...that is right.... Why i could imagine that this temperature is too high, you may ask?! Well, you should keep in mind that steel is getting worked at between glowing temperatures of 500-850°C. If you follow some glow colour charts at 800°C you will find an intensive orange or yellow. If you follow the following video with a M60 and a theoretical rpm of 550: ...Then you see at the end a still black to brown/grey colour and not a more intensive red or orange or even yellow/white.The maximum i guess by looking the barrel and some glow charts is may be like 550 °C-600°C But OK......let us assume we use a Mg42 and fire 250 rounds in 10 seconds sustained (that is not what a want!!!!) and then reach 800°C....in the following video a guy shoot a MG34...with about 800 rpm and fires about 250-300 rounds ( excluding the short breaks fireing about 20-24 seconds sustained). The barrel glows then... at least at night you are able to watch it....: How fast it will cool down from 800°C with my careful calculation, which is not in favor for the cool-down process... Here the answer: t=0 seconds: 800,00°C t=1 minute: 712,38 t=2 minutes: 634,66 t=3 minutes: 565,73 t=4 minutes: 504,60 t=5 minutes: 450,38 t=6 minutes: 402,28 t=7 Minutes: 359,63 It looses half its temperature in 6 minutes....that means that you can fire then about 150 rounds till it is at 800°C again. (No need to let it cool down to 25°C). I said 150-180 rpm for the LMG42 (Rockinharry said about 150) the game most time produce 100-150. The LMG42 unit has 2 additional barrels. But the LMG is not what we are talking about............! The HMG42 unit has may be about 5 barrels. I would like to see 400-450 rpm as a practical rate of fire for the HMG42 that is less or same than the theoretcial rpm of the M60 machine gun firing sustained 850 rounds in the video and not starting to glow like hell after more than 1,5 minutes. Because of this i can can imagine that i can provide the practical rate of fire of 450 rpm with a single barrel...may i can shoot even longer like the M60...with the same barrel. Knowing that i have about 5 additional barrels and maximum need about 6-7 minutes for cool down to half its temperature (no matter if you start at 200°C or 800°C because of its exponentiel behaviour) lead me to the conclusion that i can hold 400-450 rpm at least for 6 minutes before i may have to reduce to about 200 rpm for the rest of the game. But may be the game is over after 6 minutes engagement were my MG was in use...... Or more likely i do not need the 400-450 rpm most of the game, because i do not see any or not enough enemies...but in case i see the enemy i need the 400-450 rpm. I never said anything else....i support what you mentioned here. As general conclusion i have to say it once again for you: Nobody said i have to see the whole game an enemy. So in case i do not see an enemy who i can fight i do not shoot without order. So i have 0 RPM. In case i only see 10 seconds of a minute an enemy i only have statiscally about 450/6= 75 RPM. BUT in case i see an enemy whole round i want to see the HMG42 beeing able to provide the 400-450 rpm accurate into target ...no matter if i fight a proning enemy or a running enemy. Like you said yourself....occasionally standing up and running targets are easier to fight with a high theoretical ROF. With a HMG the accuracy is not only better than with a LMG (no matter the burst length) it also easier to aim and correct the fireing. In case of my set up...i would expect that the HMG s provide this firepower ...(and 400-450 are not 1500 rpm), because he will always see an enemy running and "always" hit something (if not the intended target may be the guy behind or next to him)

Ok....seems we can proceed in reasonable way.... I tried a rough approximation about the cool-down of a MG(42) barrel. ...Just to get an rough idea of the process-time.... Is it 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day ? The barrel is about 565mm long, while the bullet travels in a 476mm long rifling part. The barrel is slightly conical. It is convinient to say that it is a cylindrical barrel of 565 mm length (L=0,565m) and a average diameter of 2,8cm (d= 0,028m...;min ~2cm max ~3,6cm). The barrel weight is about 2 kg (m = 2 kg) I do not know what steel-alloy exactly was used for the barrel. I chose a possible "42CrMo4"-steel alloy. The here relevant "specific heat capacity" differs anyway most time only slightly. So we assume c= 470 J/(kg*K) -The point that the barrel has contact to a bigger mass (the rest of the Machine gun) with its good heat-transportation and additional cool down surface (while we are shooting) i do not take in account. - That the barrel has inside also a surface (travel area of the bullet) which is supporting the cool-down via convection is also not taken in account as well. - The ray part of cool down (cue: blackbodyspectrum) i ignore too. Further: As area/surface for convection purposes i only assume the mantlet (A=2*Pi*(d/2)*L) of the hypotheticla zylinder as relevant. So we have: A =0,0497 m² I use a simple Newton-wise exponential relationship: T = T(L)+(T(0)-T(L))*exp(-k/t) with: T is the temperature of the barrel after a cool down time t [sec] ; T(L) is the temperature of the surrounding air; T(0) is the start temperaturw of the overheated barrel; k is a "constant of proportionality" In general you see that the cool down process is a exponentiel one. That means it is faster to cool down from high temperatures (differences) than from lower temperatures (differences). It shows also that i should not wait till the barrel cooled down to the same temperature like my surrounding air, before i start shooting with this barrel again. But let´s continue: We assume here: T(L)=25°C T(0)=200°C (only a rough guess for a hotter barrel...here is more research to do ensuring a good approach to the whole problem) To approach "k" we can assume: k=(A*a)/(c*m) with: "a" is the "heat transfer coefficient"; the other variables are already introduced above. For non or lower wind velocity we can assume a lot for "a" between 7 and about 50 (depending especially on air/wind velocity and on geometric type and other conditions ): My first approach would be for a low wind velocity of v = 4 m/sec with a laminar flow on a zylindric object (no matter if vertical or horizontal orientated): a = 0,0081 * (1/d) + 3,14 * (v/d )^0,5 = 0,29+37,53 = 37,82 [J/(sec*m²*K)] k is then: k=(0,0497*37,82)/(470*2) [1/sec] = 0,001999632 [1/sec] Now you can plot: some results: Starting point t= 0 seconds -> T=200°C t= 1 minute → T=180,53°C t= 2 minutes → T= 162,67°C t= 3 minutes → T= 147,1 °C t= 4 minutes → T= 133,3 °C t= 5 minutes → T= 121,05 °C t~7 minutes → T~ 100 °C I hope that helped.... Despite the lot of things i did not in favor for the cool down rate the barrel cools down quite quickly. may be not...depending on the view Important to notice is, that the hotter the barrel the faster the cool down rate. The more rounds i can shoot for my time i gave to cool down. It is not convinient to wait till the barrel has 25°C again.... that takes to long. To talk further about the continous practical rate of fire we need to know the temperature after a burst or continous fire.... May be i can get some information after some research....but it may take time.

1. "Oddball_E8" and "Michael Emry" flamed me about JasonC...not Rock in Harry. 2. "Rock in Harry" just supported what i did say. So there was no need to react: We both said LMG fire short bursts. We both said the Round per minute is about 150 rounds. We both said the HMG fires long bursts. Very interesting was that i said 25 rounds are what i want to see implemented for an HMG. And he said he want to see much longer bursts, about 50 round bursts. VERY interesting is that the people do not react to "RockinHarry" and just flame me...why not him for the same telling ... I guess the people do not read "Rock in Harry" posts. They just think he his argueing against me....and do not even read his posts.

@Oddball_E8 and Michael emry: I did not answer his specific post(s) anymore because of two things: 1. All "points" he mentioned i answered already directly/indirectly. He can find some of my answers in the answers to other members. And i am tired repeating myself. 2. It seems that he does not even recognize what i wrote...if he would have done he may not have wrote his posts anymore. 3. Some arguments like the "i am on range and hit all...and in real battle i do not hit anything"...are thought-terminating clichés. You can talk a lot about the resulting effects without a good answer. Nethertheless, in my case it is not important because A) there was no bigger way to miss (because short distances, elite HMGs and 900 men concentrated on a small area) and when i talk about about a trained and expericenced elite HMG unit which is not able to perform the 400-450 rpm it is not a discussion point if i hit something in real life or not....just about the numbres of bullets i shot. Last but not least i would be pleased if some of you guys just would stop their trolling. I am trying my best to stay serious and discussing with arguments. It seems to me that some of you only start proxy wars, fight against everything only because they need something to fight against and some always want to misunderstand what i say and the consequences it has. Example: When i see that the LMG42 in the game is quite close to the behaviour in real life (100-150 rpm (game) to 150-180 (source)) and then say that i want to see the HMG42 then in relation to have the called 400-450 rpm(source) instead of the 200-250 rpm(game) it is reseaonable. People then try to talk against it but without calling their own source which saying another thing. The whole behaviour looks more like a allergic reaction. I would not wonder that the same guys at the moment are the same guys fighting against the first MG patch. Can you get the idea that i also could think some of you are not reasonable and live in their own fantasy world. But i do not say that....i try to argue rational without getting personal and without weaving some useless Troll-posts.

- You can add your metal-clip (no matter how many rounds it have) whenever you want. You just add it to the belt which is already and still in use...while your comrade is fireing!!!! Your no. 2 to your left is doing this....so as a gunner you have to take care only about the barrel...and not the reload procedure. -changing the barrel does not effect the mounted belt. You do not have to unload the gun to change the barrel....that is not necessary.... -You can easily have about 5 barrels as a HMG unit (may be more...i do not know).....barrels are "not" used in sustained fire (in our example 450 rpm are not 1500 rpm....about 60-70% of the time you do not shoot) ....and in case you would do you can fire 150-300 rounds with a barrel (300 rounds only if you do not care about the precision...the barrel gets ****ed a lot more....). -The barrel-change you would do on your own or by a comrade. It only takes 5-7 seconds ....and the barrel lays there to be ready to change....you do not have to fill out a formular first... These are trained soldiers.....6 men .....and they keep the barrels ready for next change ..... The 250 ammo box weights about 8 kg ....less than the LMG 42 itself.... no problem to carry it to the point were it is needed. And like i said ...in these 60 seconds you only fire about 22 seconds .... in the other 38 seconds of aiming and barrel changes your 2-3 barrels are already cooling down....(while a barrel can be used for 150-300 rounds alone). And then there are other new barrels......till these are used too you will have a good cool down of the 2-3 barrels before. So it is more plausible to listen to the quote than to your interpretation: "Refering to Colonel Butz, the "machine-gun-pope" of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, the MG34 with bipod (LMG) brang 120-150 rounds per minute accurate into target, with tripod (HMG ) 300-350. Even more quick the MG42 fired: With bipod (LMG)150-180 rounds , on tripod (HMG) 400-450. The US BAR (LMG) only could reach lean 60-80 rounds. Promptly it had proved in the field, that the extreme high rate of fire not only was a big advantage for anti-aircraft purposes. The infantry got enabled to engage even for only short time appearing ground-targets with a lot of rounds. The hit probabilty increased. Crucially relevant is not only the numbres of hits, but that a high as possible numbre of hits in a short time as possible takes place..." In the game ...despite having elite soldiers...short ranges...open field and best sight and a lot of enemies.....the HMG unit does not perform the 400-450 rpm....it usually fires only 200-250 rpm in the game....ridiculous Btw. i shot the MG3 at the army myself (....not as a HMG...) but enough to know what a crew is capable of. But i will do researches on the cool down rate of a 2kg barrel....i am interested in it myself....

The manual says that you have to change the barrel after 150 rounds sustained fire. But nobody shoots sustained. ...So it has time to cool down.... And in case of emergency you can fire 300 rounds sustained (the barrel is not in good shape after that). The barrel change takes only about 5-7 seconds. The theoretical Rate of fire is about 1200-1500 rpm (Battlefront manual). And here the quote about the practical accurate rate of fire: "Refering to Colonel Butz, the "machine-gun-pope" of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, the MG34 with bipod (LMG) brang 120-150 rounds per minute accurate into target, with tripod (HMG ) 300-350. Even more quick the MG42 fired: With bipod (LMG)150-180 rounds , on tripod (HMG) 400-450. The US BAR (LMG) only could reach lean 60-80 rounds. Promptly it had proved in the field, that the extreme high rate of fire not only was a big advantage for anti-aircraft purposes. The infantry got enabled to engage even for only short time appearing ground-targets with a lot of rounds. The hit probabilty increased. Crucially relevant is not only the numbres of hits, but that a high as possible numbre of hits in a short time as possible takes place..." Edit fast example: let us assume we do not have 1500 rpm ....just 1200 rpm....let us assume we change the barrel every 150 rounds and not 300 rounds....let us assume we need 7 seconds to change the barrel....let us assume we fire sustained and take a look. fast example: 150 rounds (7,5 seconds) + barrel change (7 seconds)+ 150 rounds (7,5 seconds)+ barrel change (7 seconds)+ 150 rounds (7,5 seconds)+ barrel change (7 seconds)+ 150m rounds (7,5 sec) + barrel change (7 seconds) = 600 rounds in 58 seconds to reach the 450 we can avoid the last 150 rounds and the last barrel change. So we have time left: 7,5+7+2= 16,5 seconds for firebreaks and aiming and additional cool down while these breaks....may be we avoid an extra barrel change and get additional time

In case 900 men running more or less all together to a bridge in open field ....and 6 elite heavy machine guns just only have to pull the trigger on distances between 100 and 340 meter ...yes then i would expect much more casualties and/or with less rounds. In a normal game the HMGs only produce the same amount of casualties like a standard infantry group.....about 15-20 casualties.

I see that the LMG 42´s practical rate of fire (at best conditions average of 100-150 rpm) in the game is quite close to the quote i once citated here (refering on this, it should have 150-180 rpm). But the HMG42 only has 200-250 and should have 400-450 rpm (refering to same citate). I do not think that the first step the devs should do is to work on the game mechanics.... If the swing movement for shorter ranges or area fire is to complicate they just should start to increase the practical rate of fire. And this they could do by increasing the rate of bursts per minute and additionally implement some longer bursts (~25 rounds). This should not be the problem.... At the moment the HMGs work more like more accurate LMGs.

In my experiences A HMG units achieves maximum 15-20 casulaties. Most of them on shorter ranges....The same ranges a standard infantry group is fighting at And very interessting is that a standard infantry group is achieveing the same amount of casulaties like the HMG units.. That is one of the main points why i did not play Normandy. (no round-based TCP/IP, ultra spotting aimbotter tanks, useless HMGs, useless trenches, not being able to fire Panzerfausts from buildings) When i heard that they established at least a little the round bases tcp-ip and increased HMG power i decided to buy CM:RT. I see the problem. there are two.... The problem to spot an enemy (at every distance) and the extreme decreasing practical rate of fire. In my test set up i wanted to see what the HMG are at least capable to bring up .... short ranges = high spotting ability and high practical rate of fire. dense enemy = high spotting ability, high hit probaility and high practical rate of fire I saw that the LMG practical rate of fire and fire behaviour is more close to the literature than the HMG. The HMG42 should have about 100% more practical rate of fire than it has in the moment. An this practical rate of fire should not decrease with distance that fast than a LMG does. All correct....i support your opinion. You are right in case you can not swing the gun at shorter distances. Long bursts are fired on all distances....but on short distance you need to dispense the long burst with an osciallating movement. If not the most rounds are ineffective. But sure only in case that the enemy-amount/-density is worth to fire longer bursts. I have the same opinion. Yes...good idea and compromise ! short bursts to get the right aiming /distance and longer bursts for effect. If no swing movement implemented it would be could to see: At shorter distances far more bursts with different aimings.

Any evidence for that? Between 1050 and 1500 .... ---so ~17- 25 rps....depending on source and used ammo type. BF manual says something about 1200-1500. correct. That is quite a lot. Even at the careful germans the "schützenrudels" have standard distances of 5 meter. Only on special orders the distances get changed. And i do not know if the russians do care a lot about distances ....especially if i think of battle of "seelow hights"... Nevertheless: In the game they are quite close and always in a line. That is not the real battle behaviour. That is the point why the devs definetly have statistics involved. But if they do so....the whole single person concept was for nothing...they just should have stayed with the abstract concept of CM:BB. But this is a whole other discussion. Let us stay with your 10 meters instead of the more likely 5 meters for a moment. That is the whole point....with a HMG you can decide if you want to fire a long burst, if you want to swing fast or not, if you want to fix the vertical elevation or not. In this case you just can easily swing the gun while the vertical angle/elevation is fixated. You will be able to dispense the 25 rounds in a accurate horizontal line. You do not care the vertical angle anymore...it is fix. ( that is one of the advantage of a tripod) A thing you can not do the a light machine gun. With a light machine gun you are limited to 3-7 round bursts to keep accuracy. And because of this you mostly aim and shoot a specific target without swinging. A HMG can work the other way. In the video you see him fireing the HMG while the vertical angle is fix. He just oscillates the gun knowing that he will set the rounds at a specific vertical high. Increasing the range is not necessary. Despite that i already said that the use of horizontal oscillating is more on shorter ranges up to 250 meters. Like in the video you for sure can fire this way to supress....the effect will decrease with higher distance or you have to fire more rounds. And now you get the answer why a HMG with 1500 rpm will be more effective than a HMG with 500 rpm. The very moment a group gets the order to stand up and assault i can fire more rounds into this groups till they search cover again. Like i once said....supression is a function of a lot variables.... But for sure supression is a function of the fear/probability to get hit. The numbres of "turkey shots" increase statiscally with the numbres or rounds i send into a bunch of enemies....no matter if they are running or hiding. In general you are correct.....especially if you use a LMG which is limited to fire short bursts because of decreasing accuracy ....and if you fire on medium to high distances .....and if you fire single targets ......or wide spread targets. But we talk about shorter distances with higher spotting ability and with normal or higher enemy density. At least when i see 3-5 people running at 150 meters with 5 meters distance to each other i will be more motivated to fire my long 25 round bursts into all these guys than aiming on a single one....especially when i know that they will search cover after that burst....i will take the chance to hit more than one guy. I did not say that.....i attached conditions to that... On medium to higher distances and especially on proning or only occasional targets i will fire my bursts on a specific target and not osciallate my weapon then

So? ....what is the point? You can swing the gun to kill running people or you can swing the gun to supress the enemy who already took cover. Who needs to talk if it is a "death-ray" or not.... .... long bursts and gun-oscillating are not represented in the game... but it should... it would be more realistic/historical correct...and it would increase the supressive effect ...and it would increase hit probability.

In the following video you can see a heavy machine gun 34 firing long burst/continous fire while swinging the gun. Look at Minute 2:15 - 2:17 :

Why do i need to be entrenched ? and why barbed fire? i just need a heavy machine gun ....and an enemy aproaching between 100-250 meters (could be still more....but i guess then it is most effective to swing the gun). The light machine guns do not swing....especially on these distances. The heavy machine gun is easy able to aim, shoot and swing and because of this it is easy able to dispense a burst accurate in an area you like. And you can decide how long your burst is and how fast you are swinging. In real life heavy machine guns are fireing longer bursts because they can without decreasing accuracy. No heavy machine gun is shooting 5 round bursts when it sees 40 men running 150 meters in front of him.... And imagine if you shoot a 1 second burst (20-25 rounds) out of an ambush and there are falling easily 5 guys before the rest can lay down and seach cover

@JasonC: i can not tell you how tired i get by repeating myself... On 100 meters......i can just swing my HMG from one side to the other, in a horizontal way, to dispense accurately my burst in the way/area i like. This way i not only supress more people i just have a higher propability to hit other enemies running in the same area. So hard to understand?

Correct...all HMG should do like this...longer bursts (at all distances) and swinging at shorter/medium ranges. I never said anything else. The HMG42 just should fire about 200 rpm more in case he continious spots and fight enemy units. At the moment the practical rate of fire is too low. And in case the developer would do so....you should establish additionally longer bursts (like in real life). And in case he establish longer bursts he should establish the swinging of the gun in case of shorter/medium ranges and more enemy units spotted. If he is not doing the last point (swinging) the MG42 would have a disadvantage at shorter ranges. Just because the HMG42 is fireing a 25 round burst at a specific point and most rounds would not have a good use. With swinging the gun, the HMG42 can dispense controlled the 25 rounds on a wider spreaded area.

According to this i am going to do further test runs....with all LMG and HMGs of the game to be able to compare them. Nevertheless i wish i could see that the devs establish long bursts for the heavy machine guns and establish a "swing" movement on shorter ranges. Actually the MGs (especially the HMG) are just useless.... you can be happy to do 15-20 casualties in a standard game with a whole HMG unit....that is the same like a standard infantry group.....ridiculous. I did a test with LMG42 it shoots about 100-150 rounds per minute.....that is quite close to the above quote....the behaviour of short bursts and not swinging is accurate too..... So for first moment i am OK with LMG behaviour (only the spotting could be better for all units). But the HMG 42 only does 100 rpm more than the LMG42 (instead of 300 rpm more). There are no longs bursts and there is no gun-swinging (for shorter range and more dense enemy-concentration). That makes the whole HMG wrong simulated.

Sure....behaviour gets irrational. A greenhorn is not able to get an proper idea of the "real" effects. A guy who is fanatic is more like to ignore bullets flying 10 meters away from him....until the bullets get very close to him or his next comrades are falling. A more experienced guy is more able to get an proper idea of when he gets in danger... A guy with more discipline is able to ignore a lot too. In general you are right.... Still it is not wrong that a soldier has more fear facing a high rate of fire gun ....his instinct is a good way to handle the unpredictable . The MG aiming on you (especially the HMG) and fireing a burst increases the hitprobability (2-3 times) on you while you laying down and search for cover. A MG aiming on your assaulting group and just swing from one side to the other and brings down 2-3 times more rounds befor you can all search cover just hits 2-3 times more. What do you do if instead of 1 guy is falling----3 guys falling in the same moment..........yes.....you feel more supressed ....

All weapons produce suppressive fire......do you know why? Because nobody wants to die.... There is a proportionality between supression and firepower.... A weapon which does not kill .....does not supress. I only feel more supressed in case i am more close to die. The high rate of fire increases on high distances the hitprobability and on low ranges it does too....just by swinging the gun i can dispense the rounds into an enemy group....because of this i am not only able to let more people feeling supressed ...i am also able to hit more people per time frame. Some people do not get this simple correlation.