Kauz

Yep....a HMG unit should be far better than a standard squad.

ok...i hope so ^^

That you should proof first... The effective range in handbooks of MG42/MG34 and MG3 are still the same 1000-1200 meters. I know that video....and it seemed more like a propaganda film....with faked results And they for example told that MP40 fires faster than the tompson ...rofl

I actually see that she or he is changing aiming not only between the burst...may be during the bursts too.....so this video signifying nothing.... at the MG34 video you can clearly see that the gun only elevates vertical wise and that there is no side drifting of the tracer line and no spread/ outbreak out of the tracer trajetory. perhaps you should buy a bigger screen....use fullscreen-mode at the video...the maximum resolution of the video...increase the brightness of your screen and take off the specific glasses you recommended Skwabie. Nevertheless...i admit that we should find data for the accuracy during fire bursts.... But no doubt for me is that the accuracy and firepower is far far far far far far far far far far better than using a light machine gun and so the HMG are clearly undermodelled

Well i can.... and i see a lot.... Not at the moment....but i will try to find more... But may you try also to find something that support your opinion...just saying "no" to mine and always let me do the research work does not bring us any further.

Watch the Mg34 video in the list i posted....for you again: again....the only thing you see is a vertical movement of the rtacer line up and down due to the aiming of the gunner. and a some richochets and breakign inceniary charges after the impact of bullets. There is literally no significant spread..........omg

I am not familiar with russian 7,6mm ammo... for the germans you find 3 signifcant rounds useful for armor penetration: 7,92mm IS "sS" (schweres Spitzgeschoss) (@100m ~6mm? penetration; main production/standard ammo of german 7,92 IS production) 7,92mm IS "SmK" (Spitz mit Kern) (@100 ~10mm? penetration; ~10 % of ammo production) 7,92mm IS "SmK(H) (Spitz mit Kern gehärtet) (@100 ~14mm? penetration; ~1% of ammo production SmK is made of hardened steel SmK (H) has a more harder tungsten core The penetration ability and the numbre of production may divergate ....it is only as a rule of the thumb. If russian did the same way ...you may get an idea why a 7,62mm is not able a fight proper a vehicle which has minimum 8mm armor (not counting the impact angle, the distance and the fact that the front is better armored)

I was saying the opposite... i can not speak for the 37mm AA....but the 20mm did NOT have effect on the tracks, obviously because the AI always aim on the center of the enemy unit. Always hoped the 20mm gunner would know that he only should do 2 things to fight the enemy tank... 1. kill enemy infantry on the tank 2. fire on the tracks area to get him immobilized but the AI is not intelligent enough for that... I remember another game of Battlefront...it is called Theater of war....and if i remember right you could choose where your tank has to aim on on enemy tank....such a pity that they did not implement that in Combat mission also

That is the point....you do NOT pull the trigger 1 second with the light MG3 (light=bipod). You just only tap the trigger to ensure that only 3-7 rounds leave the gun.

correct. Btw: can you send me a copy of the 25 round order for light machine guns. I could try ask the "Bundesarchiv"...but it will take time....and you seem to already have this "Heeres-Dienstvorschrift"

Yes ...if a LMG wants to enage a target accurate and efficient (regulary on medium or higher distance) it trys NOT to fire more than 7 rounds. You will get an idea of the accuracy and spread of a LMG in the following post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528322&postcount=5 So the devs simulate the burst length of LMG in generally right....for all light machine guns. You may ask, why then the high rate of fire could be in interest for a light machine gun.... The advantage of a MG42 in relation to a DP28 is that the MG42 does the work (delivering for example a 5 round burst) in only about 40% of the time a DP28 needs to. Imagine the following situation: A soldiers is hiding and the LMG gunner waits for him getting up again to kill him. The soldier is getting up ...runs 2-5 meters and drop himself back to the earth searching cover...the light machine gunner may only have a short, a snapshot of time to shot on him. This short time the MG42 can use to deliver more rounds than a DP28 gunner. That increases the hit probability. ------------ Yes it does.....that i already tried to tell and proof with a lot of video links. The links are all in this thread....but i collect them again for you: Related to the spread/accuracy with "infinite" long bursts: @ 0:37 min: -------- Related to longer bursts and swinging the gun: @ 2:27-2:38 min: Related to accuracy of short bursts without swinging: same link like above @ 1:18-1:57 min Related to ability to aim fast and fight fast several targets without swinging and without vertical fixation of the gun: @ 0:12-0:18 min: Related to the doctrine to fire longer bursts instead of shorter ones: @ 0:19-0:22 min:

With the regular 20 mm AP ammo...you won´t penetrate the T-34. Only thing i could imagine in real-life is that the tracks get destroyed and immobilize the tank. Or one 20mm AP round somehow manages it to penetrate or block the rim-area between turret and upper chassis . This way the turret would not be able to rotate anymore. very unlikely is hitting the gun barrel and perforating it. Hitting the optics and radios seem to me more unlikly than the first two options i mentioned. But damaging radio/optics seem to be the most common thing in CM:RT....aiming on, hitting and destroying the tracks on the other side i see not often. side is about 8mm angled.... a 7,64mm standard round may penetrate 5-7 mm at 100 meters point blank . So the invincibilty of a SPW against 7,64mm is plausible.

The LMG ...25 round bursts....are you really sure about that....??? I was shooting the light MG3 myself and was ordered to fire short bursts of 3-5 rounds. Even if i would have been ordered to fire longer bursts i only could imagine that this has a use if the enemy is actually running at very low distances below 50 (maximum 100 meters). The spread after the 5th round of a LMG is increasing a lot so fighting a specific target over 100 meters would be more ineffcient. Additionally you have to check the effect, the targets and situation whole time. That is more easy if you do short bursts with a LMG ...

The accuracy of a single bullet is high and the spread of a burst itself (no matter which burst length with the Tripod) is extreme low... that is what i tried to tell with (laser) accuracy. The ballistic drop of the bullet you and some other are refering to is at 100 meters 4-5 cm and at 250 meters 14-15 cm. So the effect you are refering to is negligible at short up to medium distances. But all that i already told in this thread....always have to repeat myself Not correct.... Yes, they provide the firepower on high distances (other weapons can not) . and yes...before you use a HMG in a distance of 50 meters you will surely take a LMG for that purpose....if you have one.... but that does not mean they got not established at distances between 100-500 meters if it was necessary or convenient. If you have an area with only 400 meters diameter where you can shoot at. Then you WON`T hold back establishing you HMG, only because it is able to shoot at higher ranges Or in another case....the enemy approaches closer to your HMG 100-500 meters in front your position ...then you won´t stop fireing on them because somebody says....ups...we are not meant to fire on that distance (despite the fact that you are extremly deadly/effective on that distance). If you think HMGs only got established on the battlefield if they can fire at 1000 meters then you are a little blue-eyed. And another point in general: The effective range of a LMG is 500-600 meters....But it is more effective on ranges below... Same thing with a HMG...effective range is 1000-1200 meters in direct fire.....but it gets more effective on ranges below... A HMG does NOT get ineffective with lower ranges....

I do not want to analyse and count every post á posterio. But here are 2 examples: No.1 talking about accuracy: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528659&postcount=49 No.2 talking about accuracy and especially at longer bursts because of a pretended escalting Tripod http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528700&postcount=59 If you then read for example the follwing in post No. 2: "....If you put a stationary chest sized target at 100m, rounds will miss it...." and then compare the videos......then the other thing is proofed. So you see the videos have their reason and right to exist. That is a thought-terminating cliché. But even in case i would accept that thought-terminating cliché....then we should do the next step and compare all the other weapons to the HMG. And my opinion is that not only the HMG is in absolute undermodelled.....it is also undermodelled in relation to other weapons.... To get this idea you only just have to compare the achieved casualties of a standard squad/group to an HMG unit at short/medium ranges.

If you follow the discussion you see a lot of people saying the heavy machine gun was inaccurate (especially with longer bursts and longer distance) and people who do not know that the heavy machine gun is used to be fireing especially longer burst up to 25 rounds. So i guess the videos are information and proof at the same time for the people who do not seem have any idea of these weapons.

Found another video .... LONGER bursts. One target getting shot you can watch: @ 0:19-0:22:

good point....how about the StG 44....did you find any units with any/higher amount?

I do not know either how CM:BB fire tables are a base for CM:RT. But this was not the topic. Yep difficult.... There are no units with huge amounts of MP 40 or StG44 anymore/actually in CM:RT like they were in CM:BB. Instead of that a lot of units with just standard (1 MP, 1 MG, rest K98 and additionaly sometimes some G43 which were not even represented in CM:BB) So we can not do any tests.... I do not know what you mean....i only said that the once i saw a StG44 in action in CM:RT i did not see him firing single shots....only quite long bursts and so only used like the MP40 . That is all..... An observation ...and 1 observation is better than 0 observation.

As rule of a thumb: If you not only wanted to suppress a enemy squad/group (entrenched) but get them (routed/)killed you had to use the combined fire of about a company.

Support that. Fast search for heavy machine gun. The distance is unknown, but i guess 500-1000 meters because of the longer bursts and the optics: Regarding the light MG3: Then i was shooting the light MG3 on the army, i was ordered to fire short bursts Minimum 2 rounds, Maximum 7 rounds. Regulary 3-5 round bursts. The first 3 rounds of a burst are quite close together, round 4-5 is spread more and 6-7 even more. For more information look at my post quite at the beginnging of the thread (Schützenschnur "bronze"). Only gunners with a higher weight or higher power could press themselves so hard into the machine gun that the accuracy could be hold for 1-2 rounds more. So not only the first 3 rounds were quite accurate (then up to 5 rounds) If the enemy soldiers are closer or dense and you are skilled you can swing the gun from one side to the other with your longer bursts. But if you ever would fire more than 10 round bursts is very unlikely (only if a enemy horde is already assaulting your position between "0" and 20 meters.) Fireing longer burst with MG3 and being accurate like a "Laser" you can only provide with the heavy mounting tripod. Additional to the video at the beginning of this post you might take a look at the other links i posted in this thread. I never shoot the heavy mounting myself. I only know that the bursts are around 25. Shorter bursts are only useful if you fight a single hidden target, want to save ammo and want to find the right aiming first. Longer burst on a single target i guess you use if you have the right aiming/distance or you fire on long ranges 800-1200. Longer bursts on short or medium ranges are usefull if you swing the gun from one side to the other and so dispensing the rounds either to ensure to hit a single target or to increase hitprobability on more people running in the same area. But i will do a research on the Bundeswehr orders for heavy machine gun to ensure i am not wrong with my guesses related to the heavy MG.

I never saw power difference in battle...then i took a look on the abstract fire tables in the game and could just see why ...the StG44 in CM:BB had "no" advantages on 100-250 meters. I do not have the game installed where i am actually are. so please do it yourself and compare MP40, K98k and StG44 on the several distances. About the general use of the Stg44: At short distances up to 50 meters i would expect that the StG44 could be used like a MP40. Depending on the situation/firemission you may frequently use small firebursts. Either to stop assaulting enemies or you try to supress enemy in a house/windows. Then your 3-4 times higher penetration power of the StG44 (compare to the Mp40) can be an advantage. Disadvantage is the higher recoil. So on distances on about 100 meters it is more convinient to fire single shots. Depending on how far he is, how many are running with him or if he is hidden or not you fire fast or take more time to aim with the single shots. So.... on distances on 100-250 meters you use it more like an semi automatically rifle. But the advantage is that you have less recoil than with an semi-auto and so you can aim easier and shoot faster the single rounds on after the other than you may would do with a G43. Because of the higher rate of fire of accurate single shots and the bigger magazin there should be a remarkable firepower difference to a G43...not speaking K98 In CM:BB there is no fire power advantage. The given numbres of MP40, K98, StG44 on distances beginning with 100 meters do not make sense anymore. In CM:RT like we all know there are no real amount of StG 44 anymore instead of that you will find the G43 in "masses" which was not presented in CM:BB. Once i had the luck to see one StG44 in action. It were on distances between 20- 100 meters. It always was simulated like the Mp40...fireing quite long bursts (about 3-7 rounds if i remember right). Not a single time i saw him fireing single shots. ----------------------------------- Fast search: At: 4:04-4:07 you will see him fireing bursts. At: 4:32-4:36 you will see them fireing SINGLE shots fast one after the other. ----------- Other video: At 1:50-2:07: Here you can get an impression of the accuray if someone is trying to shoot at 114 meters while standing. He took a lot of time for aiming. But in case of laying down you can see in videos before how fast the people shot the single shots because they used the Magazin as fix-point. It helped aiming with the iron sights. But better we discuss the whole thing in another thread. This thread is actually more an MG thread....would be bad if we dilute this thread.

I liked CM:BB very much....but already in this game i always thought how weak LMG and HMG are both modelled. (addionally i did not see any big firepower difference of the StG44 at 100/250 meters in relation to a MP or a K98. You could still use the MP40....no need for a StG44. In CM:RT at least the HMG seems NOW to be more useful than in CM:BB...So at least there is an improvement. After CM:BB, CM:AK came out and i especially laughed loud how the game modelled the abstract firepower of a BAR and a Bren in relation to the MG34/42. But this is all old stuff....i just can hope that CM:RT is going to do it better ...

You took the words right out of my mouth... Accuracy, frequency, burst lenght... The maximum i saw was about 10 rounds in a burst at closest ranges and never the established 25 round bursts (at the moment there is not a single one in contrary to the use of the gun in reality ). With a 25 round burst you would have a good hit probability shooting a specific target/area on (extreme) high ranges and especially at medium and low ranges you could SWING the gun from on side to the other dispensing the rounds on an area against more than one guy. Otherwise in last case these laser accurate guns would have used their 25 rounds on only perforating a single person or area of air. If i would start to fix the gun i would increase the numbres of 25 round bursts. As a second thing i would establish a swing movement while shooting to dispense the rounds at short ranges. As a third thing if necessary i would try to check if the accuracy of a burst on high ranges is any way compatible/plausible with the reality. There could be still other things like for example frequency of the bursts. But let us start with point 1 (burst lengths ) and point 2 (swing movement). These are the most legitime and obvious points !

sure it is...it is all an option...